Shimano Dura Ace R9200 12 electronic groupset issues

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Belisarius
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:36 pm

by Belisarius

Although this groupset is eons above prev gens, esp 9000/9100 mechanical, it does have surprising flaws or glitches that may need to be resolved.

Note- 9000 and 9100 ran, without exception, with SRAM Monoblock cassettes and Campy Record 11 chains, and Yokozuna cables. No issues in 50-60,000 kms. A tad noisier 11-12 t (resonating SRAM Monoblock) but, once in gear, powerful, incredible, fast. Prev 9000-9100 DA chains usually lasted 2 weeks max, and their poor alloys resulted in vertical and horizontal, lateral and longitudinal looseness and vibration. Campy, 3200kms to Replace spec. Dry only, clean.

BIKE: COLNAGO V3RS Size 52, Metron 5D handlebars, ENVE SES 5.6 Disc rims.

The good:

1. R9200 is quiet, very quiet
2. Shifts quietly, though in Semi sync, slower than my 9100 mech
3. Ergonomics OK
4. Crankset stiffness surreal, tops everything I knew
5. Cassette, soft but seems reliable at the 500 kms mark (prev generations, peg area loosened or broke the plastic spider core)
6. Excellent trimming if or when it happens
7. NO BRAKE DISK RUB (or we fixed that quickly) on Swiss stop rotors as Shimano were not available
8. Fast reliable shifting, less in between gear grinds as prev gens (9000/9100 mech or Di)
9. Light, at 7.5 kg heavier than my 6.9 kg average 9100 mech bike. But close and stiffness conveys more energy to the road.

The bad

1. Brakes. At their best, bedded in, feel 50% less effective than rim, despite multiple bleeds. Forget top braking, you have to go in the drops to pull and generate enough braking power.

2. RD-9200- always wants to overshoot 15t going p (13, 14-15,) and never going down. Two cassettes, two chains, same thing. We are pretty sure it is the RD itself, overshooting the 15t. Nothing helped, next step try another RD

3. FD threw my first chain twice by the 5th ride, happened after a firmware update. I was lucky to not fall. In the absence of a FD physical limit, that liability is there, could be firmware trim loss or accidental Function/Yellow and touching the L lever, that will trim without realizing. PHYSICAL LIMIT IS A MUST, or risk a serious injury. They kept it on the RD, why not the FD??? Chain slightly twisted

4. DA chain DA chain DA chain… 300 kms before vertical compliance failure? So the vertical compliance noodled, riding, 30 35 40 km hour and bang bang bang it started hitting my chainstay. No, not a freehub issue, just chain. Pedalling, any road imperfection, 36 – 13/14/15, BANG. And 52-11/13 BANG BANG, either slowing down, stop pedal or bumps

5. Cassette. Better built. But still soft. Soft alloy,. With holes and pegs to be light, it has multiple material weak points. Does not hold a candle to SRAMs monoblock high tensile alloys, nor against sprocket and alloy Campy cassette tech. it is a bit like comparing a Hyundai to a BMW in tensile steels, no comparison. Like the chain, the cassette seems ot a have a low torsional and static bend rigidity tolerance. I can slightly bend sprockets with fingers

6. Fortunately for the cassette, the RD precise shifting stresses the cassette sprockets less. But without a doubt the 9200 DA cassette will not last as long as competitors featuring higher tensile, stronger materials!

THE CHAIN ISSUE

Head home, cancel the ride, tighten the B screw to the max, next ride, well, I dropped the chainstay whips by 80%, but they are still too frequent on the 36. So the chain seems to have lasted about 300 kms, about 10% of my Campys, that, even when worn out, do not whip the chanstays of other bikes. It may pass the longitudinal wear test, but vertical stiffness is gone. Worse, at speed, sun to my left, see my shadow, and the chain is pretty much oscillating badly vertically, on a smooth road under load! Up do up down, stop pedal BANG! Road bump, BANG!

So what are those reviews praising DA 12 speed chain durability, 2 noodles in a row...?

GEAR RATIO

36 is useless. Stop and go, 3/34 or 36/30 are useless, torque too high, skid the tires. Uphill, ok, works, but I am slower as I must sit. Stand up on a stiff frame and the torque is too low, if I stand up, having to go down on the 28 at 5% gradient! So uphill, upwards ramps, I am mid cassette.

52/36 with 11-34 forces a lengthier chain, and the 36 lowers it closer to any chainstay. Vs 53/39, the difference is night and day- a 39 keeps the chain high enough even in the low sprockets. Fortunately a 40t chainring is coming next week.

But the chain was stiff and did not whip the first 300 kms… Although it retains a longitudinal, push stiffness, it has noodled in the vertical axis, amplifying the 15t overshoot, the RD needing less effort. But the wear rate is, for me, in two DA chains, nothing less than surreal.

FD generates a huge effort to push the chain over to the 52, the internal chainring scratches say it all. It is tough and violent, and will invariably wear both chain and 52 quite fast, Fortunately, a 40T should reduce the gear change force requirement. And, if nothing solves the whip, one could do a 11-30 rear cassette.

For strong, torque riders, the best combo might thus be a 52/40 with an 11/34 OR 11/30. If you can get the 40.

Overall, quitter, crisp, precise groupset, but it appears let down by chain durability, and a gear ratio that compels both a long chain and ominous chainstay whips. The FD should revert to a physical limit, just to prevent riders from having serious incidents and invariable Transportation authority complaints and eventual recalls..

Should the groupset reveal a compatibility with a SRAM 12 speed cassette and a Campy SR12 chain, this RD9200 would indeed be a dream machine.


MAY 2023 SOLVED: 40T RESOLVED ALL ISSUES BUT BRAKING. No more chainstay slap. More tension. no more RD overshooting the 15t, going on 14t then back. Done. braking still 50% less effective than my mech 9100.
Last edited by Belisarius on Fri May 26, 2023 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hexsense
Posts: 3269
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Location: USA

by Hexsense

Vertical stiffness of a chain???
What??
I get that chain supposed to maintain some degree of lateral stiffness.
But vertically? It supposed to move very freely to not waste any energy bending it around cogs and chainring (and pulleys).

What stop the chain from hitting chainstay isn't chain vertical stiffness. It's the RD cage tension.

Hexsense
Posts: 3269
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: USA

by Hexsense

Belisarius wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:32 pm
GEAR RATIO

36 is useless. Stop and go, 3/34 or 36/30 are useless, torque too high, skid the tires. Uphill, ok, works, but I am slower as I must sit. Stand up on a stiff frame and the torque is too low, if I stand up, having to go down on the 28 at 5% gradient! So uphill, upwards ramps, I am mid cassette.

For strong, torque riders, the best combo might thus be a 52/40 with an 11/34 OR 11/30. If you can get the 40.
I stop and go on 50/27. Do you alway switch to small ring everytime you stop??
If so, try 50/34 and stay in 50 the whole time instead of switching back and forth between big and small ring.
If it's only 5% climb, I'd still be on big ring. Save small ring for actual climb, over 9%.

Maybe 52/36 fit you better than 50/34 if you are particularly low cadence rider (less than 85 rpm). But the idea is to size the gear so that you can stay in big ring for most of the normal ride. Save small ring for actual climbs. Or go 1x if you ride on flat land.
Last edited by Hexsense on Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nickldn
Posts: 1865
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

Sounds like you need a SRAM AXS RD with a clutch. :D It stops the longer chain (required for 12s with large cassette tooth count) oscillating so much. I have Campy 12s with 34t chainring and 34t cassette, the chain rattling is annoying every time I ride over an uneven surface. It hasn't fallen off yet.

Overall the 'new' 12s groupsets provide greater gear range, but this means the chain is much longer and has more slack in small-small gears. This needs to be engineered into the product.

You are not the first to mention lack of physical limit screws in the FD causing an issue after updating firmware. Poorly thought out product and Shimano should recall if they can't ensure FD limits are stored no matter what.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Zipp SL70 bars 7.5kg

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Belisarius
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:36 pm

by Belisarius

Nickldn wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:26 pm
Sounds like you need a SRAM AXS RD with a clutch. :D It stops the longer chain (required for 12s with large cassette tooth count) oscillating so much. I have Campy 12s with 34t chainring and 34t cassette, the chain rattling is annoying every time I ride over an uneven surface. It hasn't fallen off yet.

Overall the 'new' 12s groupsets provide greater gear range, but this means the chain is much longer and has more slack in small-small gears. This needs to be engineered into the product.

You are not the first to mention lack of physical limit screws in the FD causing an issue after updating firmware. Poorly thought out product and Shimano should recall if they can't ensure FD limits are stored no matter what.
Well you get an analytic Oscar, as indeed the clutch is what a tech showed me on a SRAM AXS bike, on display. What is interesting is that for 600 kms the RD never did that- and indeed, after I posted I stopped to a close shop, asked very methodical folks for a quick look, and RD spring is what they focused on fast. if anything, it seems that the RD spring... loosened. Chain seem to be fine (it may have broken in but very much not worn).

Belisarius
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:36 pm

by Belisarius

Hexsense wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:17 pm
Belisarius wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:32 pm
GEAR RATIO

36 is useless. Stop and go, 3/34 or 36/30 are useless, torque too high, skid the tires. Uphill, ok, works, but I am slower as I must sit. Stand up on a stiff frame and the torque is too low, if I stand up, having to go down on the 28 at 5% gradient! So uphill, upwards ramps, I am mid cassette.

For strong, torque riders, the best combo might thus be a 52/40 with an 11/34 OR 11/30. If you can get the 40.
I stop and go on 50/27. Do you alway switch to small ring everytime you stop??
If so, try 50/34 and stay in 50 the whole time instead of switching back and forth between big and small ring.
If it's only 5% climb, I'd still be on big ring. Save small ring for actual climb, over 9%.

Maybe 52/36 fit you better than 50/34 if you are particularly low cadence rider (less than 85 rpm). But the idea is to size the gear so that you can stay in big ring for most of the normal ride. Save small ring for actual climbs. Or go 1x if you ride on flat land.

I do, but I do not stop very often. High cadence (105 average on 52/36 vs 95 on 53/39?) Basically, the math does not lie (or Shimano own e tube data), I spend 85% of the time in 52... If 36 is that bad for chainstay whip, 34 must be a disaster. But , 53/39, i spend 75% the time on a 39 ring (53/39) and covers the 32-35 km/hr. On the 52/36, 15% of time in the 36-13 36-14, useless. A 52/40 would cover me 34-37 km/hr for 40 and 52 36-60 km/hr. Therefore at my cadence and power I cannot imagine runnign just a 50, considering that I switch in the 52 at 34.5 km/hr/100 RPM in the high gears, crossing with that 27 or 30 on a 11-34 cassette.

The other issue is that if I have chainstay whips on a 36, and even the 52, can you imagine running 50/11 50/12 50/13 50/14 and stop pedal, bang the chainstay...

Belisarius
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:36 pm

by Belisarius

Nickldn wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:26 pm

You are not the first to mention lack of physical limit screws in the FD causing an issue after updating firmware. Poorly thought out product and Shimano should recall if they can't ensure FD limits are stored no matter what.
The NEXT time this happends- SHIMANO IF YOU ARE READING THIS- I will file a dangerous good complaint, likely to cause some injury or death. May engage the Highway T Authority. 0 tolerance for bad engineering, fortunately I never had the delaminating Ultegra 9000 crank, but i will not tolerate safeties esp as I caught myself lately pushing over 45 km/hr. This is how we will get a recall, proper complaints not calling and complaining to the NA office. There I would call just to provide the case number for the federal complaint...

Yet I am over the nasty scratches the throws did, and I should be PO... 600 km groupset, lacerated outer crank piano polish... bloody film protector did not cover the spindles :)

Hexsense
Posts: 3269
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Location: USA

by Hexsense

Belisarius wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:35 am

I do, but I do not stop very often. High cadence (105 average on 52/36 vs 95 on 53/39?) Basically, the math does not lie (or Shimano own e tube data), I spend 85% of the time in 52... If 36 is that bad for chainstay whip, 34 must be a disaster. But , 53/39, i spend 75% the time on a 39 ring (53/39) and covers the 32-35 km/hr. On the 52/36, 15% of time in the 36-13 36-14, useless. A 52/40 would cover me 34-37 km/hr for 40 and 52 36-60 km/hr. Therefore at my cadence and power I cannot imagine runnign just a 50, considering that I switch in the 52 at 34.5 km/hr/100 RPM in the high gears, crossing with that 27 or 30 on a 11-34 cassette.
Eh, maybe your gear calculator is a lot off from reality?
Start here for more accurate gear calculation: https://gear-calculator.com/?GR=DERS&KB ... H&DV=speed

If your cadence is 95 on 53. Then it'd be 96.8 RPM for the same speed and same rear cog ( and wheel size) on 52t ring. No where as drastic as 95 vs 105.

And, 52t at 34.5 km/h 100rpm means it's 52x19. Quite close to middle of the cassette. 52x27 at 100rpm would be just 22.4 km/h. So I don't know where you come up with that number of crosschaining 52x27 at 34.5 km/h.

Next, lets calculate speed range for each gear. With minimum cadence of 85rpm and maximum of 100rpm.
50x30 (not even 34t cog) at 85rpm is 18.3 km/h. A stop and go is easy on big ring. On flat land, two pedal stroke from a stop and I'm already over 18.3 km/h.
50x11 at 100rpm is 58.6 km/h.
Therefore, 50t easily cover your speed range. A switch to 53t ring increase the maximum speed to 62.2 km/h and minimum speed to 19.4 km/h. So actually, even 53t cover your 32-35 km/h speed range. Albeit leaving a bit less room to shift down for slower climbs.

More over,
Big ring align with 6th cog on the cassette from top which is in the middle of the cassete.
Your 32-35 km/h is on 50x19 to 50x17 at 95rpm. Dead middle of the cassette. Optimal chainline.
If you switch to 53, it'll shift to 53x21 to 53x19. Less straight of a chainline.

Your preferred 39t small ring laterally align with 3rd cog from the top of the cassette.
To get 32-35 km/h with 39t you need 39x15 to 39x13 which are 8th to 10th position cog of the cassette from the top. That's massive crosschaining gear that should never be used. In fact, any speed over 22.5 km/h should be done on 53t big ring on 53/39 combo.
Belisarius wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:35 am
On the 52/36, 15% of time in the 36-13 36-14, useless.
As it should. As above, you should never have small ring by 14t cog because you shift away from it since 39x19 or 36x19 or 34x19.

Conclusion of this part, 32-35 km/h at 85-100 rpm can have the most straight chainline with 50t big ring. It's the gear to use between 18.3 km/h to 58.6 km/h. Leaving its mate 34t small ring to serve at speed below 18.3 km/h. You can call that small ring useless. It is true, on most of the ride. Until you hit a steep climb. But the thing to focus is the gear range of big ring which should be used 90% of the time of more. 90% of the time on big ring is good. 75% of the time on small ring is a disaster for the drivetrain efficiency and durability.
Belisarius wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:35 am
The other issue is that if I have chainstay whips on a 36, and even the 52, can you imagine running 50/11 50/12 50/13 50/14 and stop pedal, bang the chainstay...
Check your hub and etc. I see that happen on my MTB if I turn the clutch off. 10-51T cassette on mtb is heavy. With a sudden pedal stop, the heavy cassette with its momentum doesn't want to stop rotating immediately.

On road, my Ultegra 8100 cassette which is heavier than Dura-Ace still doesn't do that. I guess the freehub have to be a bit sticky or the RD cage spring have to be a bit weak for that to happen with road cassette, it's definitely a problem that should be solved.

Belisarius
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:36 pm

by Belisarius

Something must be off with your calculations as I gained 7% speed as soon as adding the 40t. The 36 was useless for me, period especially in the speed enveloppes I mentioned, and forced me to do big changes. But especially with headwinds and sidewinds i. was hurting badly. So faster bike, better aero, 52/40 is a dream.

And as I mentioned before, my 52 is ridden 70-75 percent of the time, I cannot output on a 50 unless I go live in the mountains..

I appreciate your input, makes sense in Alan but not with real environment for me, and perhaps this is why some riders even dislikes SRAMs limitation of not offering a 40....

Belisarius
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:36 pm

by Belisarius

Hexsense wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:29 pm
Belisarius wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:35 am


Check your hub and etc. I see that happen on my MTB if I turn the clutch off. 10-51T cassette on mtb is heavy. With a sudden pedal stop, the heavy cassette with its momentum doesn't want to stop rotating immediately.

On road, my Ultegra 8100 cassette which is heavier than Dura-Ace still doesn't do that. I guess the freehub have to be a bit sticky or the RD cage spring have to be a bit weak for that to happen with road cassette, it's definitely a problem that should be solved.
The store indeed checked the hub and yes they found an odd DT Swiss slight resistance, but the issue was still there. Guess what fixed the chain beating the chain stay? 40t which raised the chain and increased tension. Nothing else worked, so my sub 37km hr range shot up while staying internet en high gears and I ditched having to spend my time in 36 -11 36-12or so. Awful especially with headwinds. 36t is for hills or slow people. This is the extent of my arrogance and insensitivity tonight.

What the store nor Shimano (in the proudest denial aspect by any Japanese maker), have fixed is overshooting 16t when speeding up. fing thing does 15 first then self corrects on the 16. It only happens going down the gears never upwards. 14-15 no issue. In practice it means an odd surge in resistance followed by a drop in resistance as the chain settles back. The RD-9200 never 'learned' where the cassette is. No trim even with the fancy Shimano tech tool solved it. On the stand it works. Until the chain ever slightly wears, then it sort of shows. Under load, 95-100-110 rpm, it misses the 15t each time.

And we tried two ultegra and the main dura ace cassette.

I am still suffering from PTCD, Post Traumatic Chain Drop with the incompetents at Shimano ever permitting a 9200 system to drop on the outside because they never installed a physical limit. It scratches and marred my the crankset, the 3d and 4th rides. It did it twice and wasted a chain with it (twisted) in a 7000$ system. Store replaced it for free. If, and if it ever repeats, in this rare I would file a highway regulatory complaint for safety and perhaps take then to small claims court.

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Belisarius wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:32 pm
The bad

1. Brakes. At their best, bedded in, feel 50% less effective than rim, despite multiple bleeds. Forget top braking, you have to go in the drops to pull and generate enough braking power.
It is surprising that you are claiming that 9200 braking is less than half as good as 9100? Are you sure about that? :?
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

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wheelbuilder
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by wheelbuilder

I am actually kind of speechless regarding MOST of what OP has written here. WTF?

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milanv
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by milanv

Very very long post of OP and without facts, many presumptions...

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zappafile123
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by zappafile123

Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 3:08 am
Belisarius wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:32 pm
The bad

1. Brakes. At their best, bedded in, feel 50% less effective than rim, despite multiple bleeds. Forget top braking, you have to go in the drops to pull and generate enough braking power.
It is surprising that you are claiming that 9200 braking is less than half as good as 9100? Are you sure about that? :?
+1 Mr. Gib, my experience of the latest Ultegra and Dura Ace is that the braking is so powerful you need to be careful. Defs call BS on OP there
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Hexsense
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by Hexsense

And OP missed the quote cut/trim in his latest reply. That makes it confusing which paragraph is my suggestion and which is his reply. Or maybe the it's still obvious even with the misleading quote structure?

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