Shimano Dura Ace R9200 12 electronic groupset issues

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

I have a gravel with 6870 Di2. You can take the RD apart and drill a new hole for the tension spring. This is what i did.
I think it sounds like this you ask for, is actually just that.

I have always seen Shimano as kind of King and i had some doubts about AXS.
I really didn't like the idea of a 10T cog at the cassette, the 48/35 chainring combo.
But i listened to the things i were told and went for the 48/35 and 10-26 cassette.
I must say, reading your headache findings makes me happy i went for AXS.
Talking modulation and full stop, that sounds weird.
My 6870 has a strong tendency to annoy me when it comes to lever pull and apply braking.
But i thought that was taken care of with the new groupsets.
It also seems you would like AXS more than your current groupset.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

ichobi
Posts: 1793
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by ichobi

These issues seems quite weird and contrary to many users' experience here. I am the first to die on the rim brake stopping power hill (especially the direct mount) but for a well tuned shimano hydro discbrake, these stuff comes with seriously strong stopping power. No way it's 50% short of stopping power compared to a rim version. The gearing and chain issues seems more like installation problems?

As for AXS, from my 3-4 years with the Red version, they come as hassle free as they get. I never thought having a chain dampener built in is such a nice QOL. Never have to worry about chainslap on any terrain, nor chain dropping if you just backpedal on janky roads neither. The only real issue i have with is that i forgot to replace the shifter battery.

by Weenie


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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

ichobi wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:46 pm
These issues seems quite weird and contrary to many users' experience here. I am the first to die on the rim brake stopping power hill (especially the direct mount) but for a well tuned shimano hydro discbrake, these stuff comes with seriously strong stopping power. No way it's 50% short of stopping power compared to a rim version. The gearing and chain issues seems more like installation problems?

As for AXS, from my 3-4 years with the Red version, they come as hassle free as they get. I never thought having a chain dampener built in is such a nice QOL. Never have to worry about chainslap on any terrain, nor chain dropping if you just backpedal on janky roads neither. The only real issue i have with is that i forgot to replace the shifter battery.
Had serious problems with chainslap (Di2 6870) on my gravel. Also chain didn't agree with me, it wanted to play outside it's ideal range.
More or less disappeared moving towards a Kent Eriksen offset spider and Easton EC90 crank. And drilling a new tension hole for the spring in the RD.
The original Shimano crank wasn't making me happy at all.
But i am also puzzled talking the disc brake experience talking OP.
A fine working disc brake system are way better than a rim brake dito.
Only thing rim is king is maintenance.
I was out riding my gravel and it started to pour like crazy.
Ground turned a mess and my calipers clogged up with mud and gravel.
So bad i couldn't keep em clean. It ended up with real problems.
First time i noted that issue and i had a broken caliper and a super-warped disc.

Next issue i've had i hope will be solved with a new adapter for the brake hose.
Because mine has been damaged 3 times to a point all fluid leaks out and there is ofcourse no brake capacity at all if this happens.
If the hose is moving on a sharp object, it goes to the point when it just give up.
This can be an adapter (hose in/ out of the frame) or somewhere the hose is in contact with something inside the frame.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

Belisarius
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:36 pm

by Belisarius

Hexsense wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:23 am
And OP missed the quote cut/trim in his latest reply. That makes it confusing which paragraph is my suggestion and which is his reply. Or maybe the it's still obvious even with the misleading quote structure?
The brake issues is not resolved, now I am describing flat not downhill braking. My mech is still superior. Shimano also compresses to near finger crushing proximity to the handlebars, no top braking, and drop only. Brakes bled several times. It is just a soft system. And my ENVE Mech just brakes better. So, factually, I need to start braking 50% further out on this system or I miss the apex or the stop line or hit that stopped car. Rotors are bedded etc.

Rest of issues resolved with the 40t. Specifically NO MORE chainstay whips; NO MORE 14 15t RD overshoot. The Shimnao 9270 works, for the first time, as intended, but onyl with the 40t. And picked up 5% speed gain in the 40T vs 36...

Belisarius
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:36 pm

by Belisarius

MAY 2023 SOLVED: 40T RESOLVED ALL ISSUES BUT BRAKING. No more chainstay slap. More tension. no more RD overshooting the 15t, going on 14t then back. Done. braking still 50% less effective than my mech 9100.

Best of all, the chainstay hits all gone. Also gone is the FD chain drop on the outside. That I credit Shimano's e Tube update and preventign accidental trim resets to 0 or +.

No more RD cassette cog overshoot. It used to overshoot the gear, then settle on the intended. Maddening..

Speed gain: 5% on the 40t.

wickedstealthy
Posts: 427
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:16 pm

by wickedstealthy

Belisarius wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 4:34 pm
Hexsense wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:23 am
And OP missed the quote cut/trim in his latest reply. That makes it confusing which paragraph is my suggestion and which is his reply. Or maybe the it's still obvious even with the misleading quote structure?
The brake issues is not resolved, now I am describing flat not downhill braking. My mech is still superior. Shimano also compresses to near finger crushing proximity to the handlebars, no top braking, and drop only. Brakes bled several times. It is just a soft system. And my ENVE Mech just brakes better. So, factually, I need to start braking 50% further out on this system or I miss the apex or the stop line or hit that stopped car. Rotors are bedded etc.

Rest of issues resolved with the 40t. Specifically NO MORE chainstay whips; NO MORE 14 15t RD overshoot. The Shimnao 9270 works, for the first time, as intended, but onyl with the 40t. And picked up 5% speed gain in the 40T vs 36...
The braking issue is something I'm completely puzzled. None and I say none rim breaking bike I drove can tip the braking of my 12s dura ace. I simply lock the brakes without an issue. I had since the beginning a soft feel in the back brake. 3x times rebled in different shops and everytime when I laid the bike down or after some time I could more or less pull the brake lever much further then the front. Then with some young mechanic we discovered some oil at bb but after two wipes was gone and didn't get back however the spongy feel was back.
Went to the shop and they checked and no leak visible. They changed the hydraulic line for the back brake. Problem solved ! Rock hard
So somehow the system wept oil and was not 100% closed.
Now both front and back are rock hard and stop in a dime. Maybe somwhere your lines run in a sharp angle or some connection is not ok.
Try rerunning your line that was what solved my issue. So basically an installation error or some bending in the frame that doesn't work out.
Btw I have a V3rs too ;)

Belisarius
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:36 pm

by Belisarius

Took me 800 Kms to figure out that BB creak- it was the seatpost somehow banging on left side. I cut it. It was timed with the left side and left bum tilting down.

Now for those doing trim adjustments rear cassette, beware of the E-TUBE. See how the chain cut into my right seatstay. When I clicked Continue after i adjuster my Low limits, it moved on 4-t to adjust the 34t, it automatically flipped the FD and the RD simultaneously cutting into the paint. I peeled he chain off but what the....

40t 40t 40t is the magic. No I am not running a 54, but I could only select 54/40 instead of 52/40. That 40 made the gears rational, and enables me to cruise mid cassette at 35/36 km/hr and move on the 52 picking up speed 38/40+. The crazy up and down swing of the chain to find a right gear ratio is gone. I can use semi sync. Far less chain stay hits . Very few actually, that paint tape is clean. the chain could use a bit more tension. Also the 11-14 t dogs are kind of soft, nothing like my minty looking 5 year old SRAM XG1190S at 15,000 Kms. So the price for this together SHIMANO chain is a softer cassette and crank alloys, metal flakes everywhere. In this as, campy Red chains I miss them, steady, straight, do not vibrate but cannot mix and match these unlike my 11 speed setup.

With the new E-TUBE update I was able to trim each cassette cog and even move from fast shifting to Normal speed, ample.

System is quiet. Very quiet. Compels you to have a quiet frame and focus on the road and passing creaking canondales.

As for braking I am near to crushing my right fingers as I brake the rear, the right lever gets to close to the bar. And no one cannot brake from the top of the hoods going down, not like the 9100. Better go drops and pull or you will hit that bus. Will have the shop fiddle with the pad clearance. But no disk rub and from the drops the system does brake. But it is such a hassle to overthink the disk brake. Whereas 9100 mech I gentle push from the hoods and could lock by rims. Nope, better get down or I will miss that red light or rear end that car.

As the season progresses and i get in shape, slim down, the cassette wear will move the 13/14t. But for stop and go traffic getting to fast areas, the higher dogs will wear more.

With not having that 34t and tighten chain, but it is a must with the 40t.

A reminder to folks to replace the crank every 20.000 kms as they drop tensile strength and soften. At the very least, two small chainrings and one big replaced for the life of the crankset or having drops. Seeing how the chain strips the crankset alloy, (flakes everywhere), the teeth will wear out fast. I retire a tired crankset on the inclement, not all out roadie and it is interesting to go from stiff crank to a fatigue one. I am lucky though, unlike PeakTorque or Hambini I never had ancrnakset delaminate.
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ChrisF
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2023 7:08 am

by ChrisF

Bumping thread for some possible advice.

I have the new Ultegra 8170 12 speed group. On my older 11 speed groupsets, I had a quick way to adjust pad spacing as they wore. Flip bike upside down; remove wheel; squeeze lever to bring pads in; re-install wheel; center calper.

9 times out of 10 that gave me a great adjustment with minimal dead spot. I could feel the change with the bike upside down.

With the 12 speed group, when i do the same process, it feels like the lever goes to the bar or doesn't have the same efficacy. I'm sure some will say to throw the bike in a stand instead but I'm doing this away from home most times and don't have access to one. Is this process not workable with the new group? Better ways to accomplish same thing?

Thanks

kode54
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by kode54

wheelbuilder wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:24 am
I am actually kind of speechless regarding MOST of what OP has written here. WTF?

Sent from my SM-A526U1 using Tapatalk
Same here.
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Jaisen
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:01 am

by Jaisen

ChrisF wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 5:24 pm
Bumping thread for some possible advice.

I have the new Ultegra 8170 12 speed group. On my older 11 speed groupsets, I had a quick way to adjust pad spacing as they wore. Flip bike upside down; remove wheel; squeeze lever to bring pads in; re-install wheel; center calper.

9 times out of 10 that gave me a great adjustment with minimal dead spot. I could feel the change with the bike upside down.

With the 12 speed group, when i do the same process, it feels like the lever goes to the bar or doesn't have the same efficacy. I'm sure some will say to throw the bike in a stand instead but I'm doing this away from home most times and don't have access to one. Is this process not workable with the new group? Better ways to accomplish same thing?

Thanks
The brake pads and pistons are supposed to be self-adjusting; I haven't needed to do this on my r8170. If your lever goes to the bar, especially when upside down, that is a good indication to me you have air in your line and you should rebleed your brakes. Whether upside down, hung, or upright, the lever pull should feel the same.

da123
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:42 am

by da123

Not entirely sure this is the best place for this question (apologies if I've missed a different thread, but couldn't find one), however has anyone managed to purchase a 11-28 Shimano Dura Ace 9200 12s cassette? It's easy to get hold of the 11-30, but despite searching and setting up stock notifications all over the place, I can't track one down. I'm not even sure Shimano have ever released them (although they do appear as options on websites, just permanently OOS)? Cheers, Dave

wannabefast
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:50 pm

by wannabefast

The 11-28 cassette doesn't exists AFAIK. Shimano had announced it at launch, but almost immediately, before groupsets actually became available, said it would be "delayed" compare to 11-34 and 11-30. I am pretty sure they just quietly killed it. Probably because the esitmated demand is too low for production.

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guyc
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by guyc

zappafile123 wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:22 am
Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 3:08 am
Belisarius wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:32 pm
The bad

1. Brakes. At their best, bedded in, feel 50% less effective than rim, despite multiple bleeds. Forget top braking, you have to go in the drops to pull and generate enough braking power.
It is surprising that you are claiming that 9200 braking is less than half as good as 9100? Are you sure about that? :?
+1 Mr. Gib, my experience of the latest Ultegra and Dura Ace is that the braking is so powerful you need to be careful. Defs call BS on OP there

+2. It's just nonsense.

Nickldn
Posts: 1865
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

da123 wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:46 pm
Not entirely sure this is the best place for this question (apologies if I've missed a different thread, but couldn't find one), however has anyone managed to purchase a 11-28 Shimano Dura Ace 9200 12s cassette? It's easy to get hold of the 11-30, but despite searching and setting up stock notifications all over the place, I can't track one down. I'm not even sure Shimano have ever released them (although they do appear as options on websites, just permanently OOS)? Cheers, Dave
Would suggest that if you really need 11-28 then you're better off with r9100 11 speed and r9200 brake calipers. It would be cheaper and probably lighter, with no loss of functionality.

The 12s generation has the benefit of making bigger range cassettes accessible for racing, at the expense of additional weight. I know some are using the new 54t crankset with the 11-34 cassette to improve chainline.

by Weenie


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da123
Posts: 454
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by da123

Nickldn wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 5:54 pm
da123 wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:46 pm
Not entirely sure this is the best place for this question (apologies if I've missed a different thread, but couldn't find one), however has anyone managed to purchase a 11-28 Shimano Dura Ace 9200 12s cassette? It's easy to get hold of the 11-30, but despite searching and setting up stock notifications all over the place, I can't track one down. I'm not even sure Shimano have ever released them (although they do appear as options on websites, just permanently OOS)? Cheers, Dave
Would suggest that if you really need 11-28 then you're better off with r9100 11 speed and r9200 brake calipers. It would be cheaper and probably lighter, with no loss of functionality.

The 12s generation has the benefit of making bigger range cassettes accessible for racing, at the expense of additional weight. I know some are using the new 54t crankset with the 11-34 cassette to improve chainline.
Thanks. I don't 'really need' it, and I have 12s DA, it's just that I don't think I've ever used the 36/30 bottom gear, and quite liked the idea of closer ratios and a (small) weight drop.

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