Challenge Criterium RS

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DieselCondor
Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:14 pm

by DieselCondor

I'm very interested in these tyres as I was a big fan of challenge tyres a few years ago for fair weather riding. The only problem is they are a horrific £90 each in the UK at the moment 😱

LanceLegstrong
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by LanceLegstrong

DieselCondor wrote:
Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:00 am
I'm very interested in these tyres as I was a big fan of challenge tyres a few years ago for fair weather riding. The only problem is they are a horrific £90 each in the UK at the moment 😱
Price was a concern for sure. I managed to pick them up from The Pro's Closet with a $40 of coupon, bring them to around $160 (USD) for the pair. Not the cheapest but I was willing to give them a shot at that price.
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otnemem
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by otnemem

I'm really surprised at the amount of people who buy tires without first seeing third party CRR data. Of course to each their own but it just surprises me.

CampagYOLO
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by CampagYOLO

otnemem wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:59 am
I'm really surprised at the amount of people who buy tires without first seeing third party CRR data. Of course to each their own but it just surprises me.
Brand loyalty and reputation?
Challenge have a good reputation when it comes to making quality tyres, especially CX ones.

LanceLegstrong
Posts: 1145
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by LanceLegstrong

otnemem wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:59 am
I'm really surprised at the amount of people who buy tires without first seeing third party CRR data. Of course to each their own but it just surprises me.
I think online forums skew perception a bit, because I'd wager 95% of the cycling community buy tires without looking at CRR data. It's not that important for most people. I race locally and I don't really use it to guide my tire decision. If I was paid to race and thought it mattered that much, maybe. But personally, I'm not going to fret about a watt or two between tires.

Edit: Also, CRR is a single data point in a very controlled environment that does not represent real world riding in the slightest, unless you're riding on a steel tube. So even those numbers have to be taken with a grain of salt.
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otnemem
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by otnemem

I obviously meant that I'm surprised people in forums like this (with easy and direct access to scientific data) buy tires basically sight unseen.

LanceLegstrong
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by LanceLegstrong

otnemem wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 8:01 pm
I obviously meant that I'm surprised people in forums like this (with easy and direct access to scientific data) buy tires basically sight unseen.
Again, CRR is a single data point for tires. And there have been tires that test well for CRR but are slower in the real world because the test protocol doesn't mimic real roads. So even with that data, it comes down to whether you trust it enough to influence your decision. And it’s definitely not the most important factor for many. I’d buy GP5000 over Corsa Speeds any day even though the Corsa test faster.

And like the other poster said, Challenge have a good track record for tires so I’m willing to give them a shot. I pretty much ride Challenge exclusively for CX. And I'm a sucker for tan walls so that's a plus over the GP5000 (hate the brown). And they're compatible with my Zipps, unlike the 25mm GP5000.

That's my take at least.

Edit: Unless the CRR data says it's like 20W per tire, it's not going to change my decision much.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Challenge tires are a known quantity.

They’re really well-made and supple. Their 100% natural rubber compound has acceptable dry grip, but a pair of Strada Bianca 40mm tires had me in the ground through a trivial low-speed corner just because the road was wet.

LanceLegstrong
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by LanceLegstrong

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:30 pm
Challenge tires are a known quantity.

They’re really well-made and supple. Their 100% natural rubber compound has acceptable dry grip, but a pair of Strada Bianca 40mm tires had me in the ground through a trivial low-speed corner just because the road was wet.
Best rain tire I've used was actually the Corsa tube type. Not the Speed, not the Graphene 2.0 or whatever, just the regular tube type Corsa from like 2018. So grippy in the wet. But to the point above, it did not test well for CRR. It tested so much slower than the Speed and GP5000. Guess that's the trade off. GP5000 TR (not S) last year for me were pretty good in wet. But I rarely ride in the rain anyways.

And to the point above about buying these before they've been tested. I'm fine with being a Guinea pig. I have a set of GP5000 S TR ready to go if these don't work out.
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otnemem
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by otnemem

LanceLegstrong wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:13 pm
Again, CRR is a single data point for tires. And there have been tires that test well for CRR but are slower in the real world because the test protocol doesn't mimic real roads.
Can you share your source for this claim?

LanceLegstrong
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by LanceLegstrong

otnemem wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:42 pm
LanceLegstrong wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:13 pm
Again, CRR is a single data point for tires. And there have been tires that test well for CRR but are slower in the real world because the test protocol doesn't mimic real roads.
Can you share your source for this claim?
The easiest thing to look at is the top tires on BicycleRollingResistance vs Aerocoach and see a very different top 20. Which indicates that testing protocol alone will change how "fast" these tires are. BRR has the GP5000 S TR and Schwalbe Pro One TT very high up, whereas the Aerocoach has them relatively very slow. Aerocoach has the Veloflex Record as the fastest tire, where BRR has them ranked 9th fastest. So if these very controlled test protocols can't even agree on which is fastest, how are we supposed to translate that to real roads with any certainty?

Not to mention other factors like tire pressure, tire widths, tarmac condition, aero profiles, rider weight, weather conditions. There are just so many varibles that will change how fast a tire rides. I'm not paid enough to spend my time decyphering all the data.
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BigBoyND
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Location: Berlin, DE

by BigBoyND

LanceLegstrong wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:21 pm
otnemem wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:42 pm
LanceLegstrong wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:13 pm
Again, CRR is a single data point for tires. And there have been tires that test well for CRR but are slower in the real world because the test protocol doesn't mimic real roads.
Can you share your source for this claim?
The easiest thing to look at is the top tires on BicycleRollingResistance vs Aerocoach and see a very different top 20. Which indicates that testing protocol alone will change how "fast" these tires are. BRR has the GP5000 S TR and Schwalbe Pro One TT very high up, whereas the Aerocoach has them relatively very slow. Aerocoach has the Veloflex Record as the fastest tire, where BRR has them ranked 9th fastest. So if these very controlled test protocols can't even agree on which is fastest, how are we supposed to translate that to real roads with any certainty?

Not to mention other factors like tire pressure, tire widths, tarmac condition, aero profiles, rider weight, weather conditions. There are just so many varibles that will change how fast a tire rides. I'm not paid enough to spend my time decyphering all the data.
The veloflex record is an outlier. Aerocoach admitted there were some very fast and then much slower samples of that tire. Likely some compound or mold changes during production. Similar issue with some schwalbe tires. They make changes often and their lack of naming distinction doesn't make it obvious which version is tested.

Almost all the other tires are in a similar order. Tires firther up on aeocoach charts look like they are ranked quite far back because some top tires are tested in 2-3 versions (TL vs clincher, multiple sizes, etc).

DieselCondor
Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:14 pm

by DieselCondor

For me any lower CRR is worth it if the other tyre attributes make up the shortfall.
My biggest gripe about challenge tyres was wet grip- I've run multiple Strada tubulars during past summers and Strada Bianca in the autum and they were all dreamy.
Great dry grip, super supple and reasonable puncture protection. Felt fast too. However they were sketchy in the wet or even worse, a slightly greasy surface...
I'm hoping these new tyres with their updated compound might tackle this.

otnemem
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:55 am

by otnemem

LanceLegstrong wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:21 pm
otnemem wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:42 pm
Can you share your source for this claim?
The easiest thing to look at is the top tires on BicycleRollingResistance vs Aerocoach and see a very different top 20. Which indicates that testing protocol alone will change how "fast" these tires are. BRR has the GP5000 S TR and Schwalbe Pro One TT very high up, whereas the Aerocoach has them relatively very slow. Aerocoach has the Veloflex Record as the fastest tire, where BRR has them ranked 9th fastest. So if these very controlled test protocols can't even agree on which is fastest, how are we supposed to translate that to real roads with any certainty?

Not to mention other factors like tire pressure, tire widths, tarmac condition, aero profiles, rider weight, weather conditions. There are just so many varibles that will change how fast a tire rides. I'm not paid enough to spend my time decyphering all the data.
You talk about being "high up" and "relatively very slow" but not about actual hard data. Even between different methodologies, consistent fast tires are still fast vs. consistent slow tires on both aerocoach and BRR.
You also show no proof of your claim in which you said "And there have been tires that test well for CRR but are slower in the real world because the test protocol doesn't mimic real roads."
Since aerocoach doesn't mimic real roads/real world either I'm still at a loss as to how you support your claim. If you have actual" real roads" tests that deny BRR (or aerocoach) data, I'm all eyes.

alanyu
Posts: 1506
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

otnemem wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 12:34 pm
LanceLegstrong wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:21 pm
otnemem wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 5:42 pm
Can you share your source for this claim?
The easiest thing to look at is the top tires on BicycleRollingResistance vs Aerocoach and see a very different top 20. Which indicates that testing protocol alone will change how "fast" these tires are. BRR has the GP5000 S TR and Schwalbe Pro One TT very high up, whereas the Aerocoach has them relatively very slow. Aerocoach has the Veloflex Record as the fastest tire, where BRR has them ranked 9th fastest. So if these very controlled test protocols can't even agree on which is fastest, how are we supposed to translate that to real roads with any certainty?

Not to mention other factors like tire pressure, tire widths, tarmac condition, aero profiles, rider weight, weather conditions. There are just so many varibles that will change how fast a tire rides. I'm not paid enough to spend my time decyphering all the data.
You talk about being "high up" and "relatively very slow" but not about actual hard data. Even between different methodologies, consistent fast tires are still fast vs. consistent slow tires on both aerocoach and BRR.
You also show no proof of your claim in which you said "And there have been tires that test well for CRR but are slower in the real world because the test protocol doesn't mimic real roads."
Since aerocoach doesn't mimic real roads/real world either I'm still at a loss as to how you support your claim. If you have actual" real roads" tests that deny BRR (or aerocoach) data, I'm all eyes.
There are actually some kinda real world tests vs smooth roller tests.

The first comes to my my mind is from the Tour magzine. Smooth vs. bad road. Some tyres lose more watts on rough road compared to some others. IIRC GP5000 TL loses quite a bit more watts on rough, but is still fast enough. However, turbo cotton becomes slower than pro one tlr on rough though it is faster on smooth.

The second is Silca. Different tyres have different turning points on real world road, regarding the optimal pressure, which makes some slow-on-roller tyres faster on road.

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