2022/2023 Canyon ULTIMATE
Moderator: robbosmans
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Because there's only so much you can do within the UCI ruleset. Also both of the bikes are excellent in terms of specs when compared to the competition.justonwo wrote: ↑Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:17 amBut why not continue to stay ahead of the pack and move the product forward another quantum leap? It's hard to get excited about this new version of thr Ultimate. So little has changed.Lina wrote: ↑Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:01 pmBefore this current generation of bikes they were cheaper and way ahead of the competition in design. Both the previous generation Aeroad and Ultimate were years ahead of anyone else in design. So much that they were both still good bikes that didn't lose anything to the competition even as the new model came out over half a decade later than the previous design was made. And all that at a very competitive price. Also the previous generation bikes didn't have any of the engineering and cost cutting issues. Especially with the Ultimate this is pretty evident. Other than full integration and D-shaped seat tube the new bike looks a lot like the old model because the old model was already really good and there wasn't much for them to improve.bananastand wrote: ↑Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:57 pmCanyon is a brand I want nothing to do with. What’s been the appeal besides price? Seems like all of their bikes have nonsense design decisions that all seem oriented to cost cutting. Not at all appealing.
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I have read that cables are costing you 1w per 10cm of exposed cable perpendicular to the windnjleach wrote: ↑Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:16 amThe new Ultimate CFR is about the same weight of the old model, isn't it?
So with the new model you're getting:
- Slightly better stiffness to weight
- Integrated cabling, and
- ~10W saving at 45km/h
I wonder how much of the 10W saving is simply due to the internal cable routing?
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I have ordered Adapter GP0224-02 for oval rails with the new Ultimate.KalleWirsch wrote: ↑Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:07 pmRoad.cc says on youtube that the SLX and SL versions can´t handle 9x7 saddle rails for carbon saddles.
Beginning of next week I can tell you if it fits with met SI SLR Kit Carbonio.
- wheelsONfire
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Yes, i absolutely get that it involves an additional cost. But from customer perspective, undoing hoses and rebleeding process plus the fact that you might be forced to swap the hoses if they come out to short. That is alot of work i would guess many would need to find a mechanic to do.thirdsun wrote: ↑Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:25 amI think that would be fine. Canyon simply doesn't do customization. The problem with the CP018 cockpit used in the Aeroad and the new Ultimate is that you can't even buy a replacement. It's simply not available.wheelsONfire wrote: ↑Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:02 pmAsked Canyon less than 4 weeks ago about changing the once piece bar/stem for a 10mm longer version.
Nope, you have to order one on the side and you know the rest.
I suspect that that is the customization Cycling Tips is speaking of: Bein able to order a different CP018 cockpit after purchase. Again, it's not ideal but I think people often don't understand the challenges that come with offering customization. It's a service that requires additional resources, requires different workflows and is simply more expensive. Canyon offers a wide range of sizes, better than most, and I can udnerstand that they follow this streamlined take it or leave it approach - even if it might not fit everyone.
This also put another thing in perspective. If someone else work on the bike how does that affect warranty?
Some brands void warranty if you yourself work on the bike. Since Aeroad has been plagued with issues i would not assume the new Ultimate is a spot on problem build.
I also think that when you buy a bike and know what you need in terms of fitting, there should be no problem or hinder ordering a correct (assuming you know what you need) cockpit.
That's just not OK!
One piece cockpits are still not an ideal solution. The ramp angle of the bar section is to affected with HT angle.
On the other hand i see alot of bikers simply rolling bars to reach shifters at the hoods (this even with a two cockpit none integrated bike).
Or moving shifters and it all just give me headache. So yes, alot of riders doesn't seem to get basics.
Perhaps i should just stop here or i will for sure start ranting of more things.
Bikes:
Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.
Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.
- wheelsONfire
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Maybe you should try to find how more spokes in a front wheel affect aero to.Andrew69 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:57 amI have read that cables are costing you 1w per 10cm of exposed cable perpendicular to the windnjleach wrote: ↑Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:16 amThe new Ultimate CFR is about the same weight of the old model, isn't it?
So with the new model you're getting:
- Slightly better stiffness to weight
- Integrated cabling, and
- ~10W saving at 45km/h
I wonder how much of the 10W saving is simply due to the internal cable routing?
I've seen alot suggesting that cables are the least of issues when it comes to drag( aero loss).
Personally i would guess hidden cables has become more of an aesthetic thing.
In the long run it's more trouble than ideal. Oh, talking watts.
Just what shirt you wear, the fit of it and how you use the zipp up or not, material (shoulders etc) is more watts.
Shoes design, helmet, how you hold your hands on the bar, width of bar, how wind hit the rotor, not to mention water bottles... yada yada....
Bikes:
Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.
Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.
This is such crap. Specialized makes and sells a bike that you can remove the stem from without disconnecting anything, it's not that freaking hard, I am floored that people are in here apologizing for canyon for not offering cockpits as if that's even a remotely acceptable thing.thirdsun wrote: ↑Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:25 amI think that would be fine. Canyon simply doesn't do customization. The problem with the CP018 cockpit used in the Aeroad and the new Ultimate is that you can't even buy a replacement. It's simply not available.wheelsONfire wrote: ↑Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:02 pmAsked Canyon less than 4 weeks ago about changing the once piece bar/stem for a 10mm longer version.
Nope, you have to order one on the side and you know the rest.
I suspect that that is the customization Cycling Tips is speaking of: Bein able to order a different CP018 cockpit after purchase. Again, it's not ideal but I think people often don't understand the challenges that come with offering customization. It's a service that requires additional resources, requires different workflows and is simply more expensive. Canyon offers a wide range of sizes, better than most, and I can udnerstand that they follow this streamlined take it or leave it approach - even if it might not fit everyone.
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I don't understand this. To properly fit a bike, you have to be able to adjust the contact points to the rider. Not being able to change the bars or stem to ANYTHING else removes that ability. I could understand this take if Canyon said "if you don't like what it comes with, just get a cockpit from somewhere else". As for "people don't understand the challenges that come with offering customization" - everyone does because this isn't the first time someone has made a bike in multiple sizes. It's a missing feature because everyone has done it for decades.thirdsun wrote: ↑Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:25 amI think that would be fine. Canyon simply doesn't do customization. The problem with the CP018 cockpit used in the Aeroad and the new Ultimate is that you can't even buy a replacement. It's simply not available.wheelsONfire wrote: ↑Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:02 pmAsked Canyon less than 4 weeks ago about changing the once piece bar/stem for a 10mm longer version.
Nope, you have to order one on the side and you know the rest.
I suspect that that is the customization Cycling Tips is speaking of: Bein able to order a different CP018 cockpit after purchase. Again, it's not ideal but I think people often don't understand the challenges that come with offering customization. It's a service that requires additional resources, requires different workflows and is simply more expensive. Canyon offers a wide range of sizes, better than most, and I can udnerstand that they follow this streamlined take it or leave it approach - even if it might not fit everyone.
Why not just include the seat tube at a set height as part of the frame? That would save a lot of weight, just continue to make the bike more difficult to ride.
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I couldn't agree more, the engineering has been done already. People are blowing this off like it was technically impossible or economically non-viable to have different cockpits and neither of those are true.spartacus wrote: ↑Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:45 pmThis is such crap. Specialized makes and sells a bike that you can remove the stem from without disconnecting anything, it's not that freaking hard, I am floored that people are in here apologizing for canyon for not offering cockpits as if that's even a remotely acceptable thing.thirdsun wrote: ↑Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:25 amI think that would be fine. Canyon simply doesn't do customization. The problem with the CP018 cockpit used in the Aeroad and the new Ultimate is that you can't even buy a replacement. It's simply not available.wheelsONfire wrote: ↑Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:02 pmAsked Canyon less than 4 weeks ago about changing the once piece bar/stem for a 10mm longer version.
Nope, you have to order one on the side and you know the rest.
I suspect that that is the customization Cycling Tips is speaking of: Bein able to order a different CP018 cockpit after purchase. Again, it's not ideal but I think people often don't understand the challenges that come with offering customization. It's a service that requires additional resources, requires different workflows and is simply more expensive. Canyon offers a wide range of sizes, better than most, and I can udnerstand that they follow this streamlined take it or leave it approach - even if it might not fit everyone.
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I want to say Portner said that one time? Obviously depends a lot on the angle of attack - even mostly parallel cables are still going to disrupt flow through the area. When you're designing bikes to be fast in laminar flow, putting a turbulence generator in front of the head tube is not helpful.Andrew69 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:57 amI have read that cables are costing you 1w per 10cm of exposed cable perpendicular to the windnjleach wrote: ↑Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:16 amThe new Ultimate CFR is about the same weight of the old model, isn't it?
So with the new model you're getting:
- Slightly better stiffness to weight
- Integrated cabling, and
- ~10W saving at 45km/h
I wonder how much of the 10W saving is simply due to the internal cable routing?
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Why does Canyon insist on selling the framesets with SRAM/Durace shifter/db setup installed... At least give the end user a choice of what they want , or nothing... being a Campy guy, the first thing turfed is that stuff... and to resell isn't as easy as it seems...
Canyon is still profiting off the very good price / quality ratio from a couple of years ago. No competitive rider is considering Canyon as a reasonable offer today due to lack of quality, fixed handlebar and overall siginficant price increase. Back in the days people bought Canyon because you couldnt go wrong in doing so; but this also meant that the people buying those things were recreational at best, dont giving a f*** about fit of the bike.
Rose Versand, the other big German internet brand also stopped offering customisation on their lates XLite models.carbocation wrote: ↑Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:02 pm
I don't understand this. To properly fit a bike, you have to be able to adjust the contact points to the rider. Not being able to change the bars or stem to ANYTHING else removes that ability. I could understand this take if Canyon said "if you don't like what it comes with, just get a cockpit from somewhere else". As for "people don't understand the challenges that come with offering customization" - everyone does because this isn't the first time someone has made a bike in multiple sizes. It's a missing feature because everyone has done it for decades.
In the past, they offered a lot of customisation (wheels, stem, bar,...).
If the lack of customisation of the geometry (stem length,...) is the price of total integration on most modern bikes, I would say 'no, thanks' to integration.
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