105 2x12 - R7170 (R7150) / R7120 (R7100) - di2 / mechanical (MY2024)

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harblhat
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by harblhat

RDY wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:30 pm
I think the slop or play you describe is a general 'feature' of all of them. Mine is exactly like you describe. So was the other 8150 I've seen. Haven't seen a 9250 up close. I posted about my experience with new Di2 in the main thread. How are you managing to get it further out (past the limit)?
Thanks for confirming on the slop. Perhaps it's to protect the motor from small rock strikes, a jammed chain, or something similar.

I'm not exceeding any built-in limits in my FD, I'm just exceeding the outer gap Shimano recommends between the chain and the cage when in the highest gear. Or the 'high limit' when dealing with a FD that has limit screws.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

harblhat wrote:
RDY wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:02 pm
Hmm. Might help circumvent some of the new Di2 FD shifting SNAFU. The 8050 works a hell of a lot better than the 9250 ...
What snafu? Genuinely curious, as my 9250 FD isn't working that great with a 9100 crankset. I have to dial the high limit past spec (about 2 mm between cage and chain instead of 1-1.5) to get it to shift reasonably consistently. I also find that the cage has a lot of slop in the pivots. I asked my shop to check other 12s FDs and the slop is present in all of them, even unridden display models.
Basing your opinions of a system’s failings on a set up that has an incompatible part subbed in? My 9250 setup works flawlessly. Odd!?


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RDY
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by RDY

ultimobici wrote:
Sat Jul 16, 2022 2:42 pm
harblhat wrote:
RDY wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:02 pm
Hmm. Might help circumvent some of the new Di2 FD shifting SNAFU. The 8050 works a hell of a lot better than the 9250 ...
What snafu? Genuinely curious, as my 9250 FD isn't working that great with a 9100 crankset. I have to dial the high limit past spec (about 2 mm between cage and chain instead of 1-1.5) to get it to shift reasonably consistently. I also find that the cage has a lot of slop in the pivots. I asked my shop to check other 12s FDs and the slop is present in all of them, even unridden display models.
Basing your opinions of a system’s failings on a set up that has an incompatible part subbed in? My 9250 setup works flawlessly. Odd!?


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It was dog shit with the 9100 rings (which make virtually no difference to 9200), nor does a 0.5mm difference in chainline between AXS and 92xx/82xx. The new FDs are just bad, like the cassettes. Hence all the problems people are having, even if they're on full DA / UT 12s.

BigBoyND
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by BigBoyND

Not everyone is having issues. My FD shifts great (Praxis Rings) and the cassette is silent now.

RDY
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by RDY

BigBoyND wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:06 am
Not everyone is having issues. My FD shifts great (Praxis Rings) and the cassette is silent now.
Sure. Some people are OK. But there appear to be systemic issues, and a lot of frustrated customers (including those on full 12s Di2 gruppos).

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

RDY wrote:
BigBoyND wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:06 am
Not everyone is having issues. My FD shifts great (Praxis Rings) and the cassette is silent now.
Sure. Some people are OK. But there appear to be systemic issues, and a lot of frustrated customers (including those on full 12s Di2 gruppos).
Some? More like most. The number of issues we’ve seen since 92xx & 81xx coming out is zero. Not one and we have been selling it in volume since day one.

Of the small number of consumers that have had issues, I wonder how many are down to shoddy installation?


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milanv
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by milanv

:wink:
ultimobici wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:39 am
RDY wrote:
BigBoyND wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:06 am
Not everyone is having issues. My FD shifts great (Praxis Rings) and the cassette is silent now.
Sure. :wink: Some people are OK. But there appear to be systemic issues, and a lot of frustrated customers (including those on full 12s Di2 gruppos).
Some? More like most. The number of issues we’ve seen since 92xx & 81xx coming out is zero. Not one and we have been selling it in volume since day one.

Of the small number of consumers that have had issues, I wonder how many are down to shoddy installation?


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No, you are not correct, many many people have problems, e. g. wobling cassettes, clicking sounds without solution, bad chainring experience, etc.. You can watch 92xx + 81xx thread. :wink:

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

milanv wrote::wink:
ultimobici wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:39 am
RDY wrote:
BigBoyND wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:06 am
Not everyone is having issues. My FD shifts great (Praxis Rings) and the cassette is silent now.
Sure. :wink: Some people are OK. But there appear to be systemic issues, and a lot of frustrated customers (including those on full 12s Di2 gruppos).
Some? More like most. The number of issues we’ve seen since 92xx & 81xx coming out is zero. Not one and we have been selling it in volume since day one.

Of the small number of consumers that have had issues, I wonder how many are down to shoddy installation?


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No, you are not correct, many many people have problems, e. g. wobling cassettes, clicking sounds without solution, bad chainring experience, etc.. You can watch 92xx + 81xx thread. :wink:
The we is not a forum where it is only natural to see more dissatisfied customers than satisfied. It is in the context of sales over the last 6 months. No one return.


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openwheelracing
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by openwheelracing

ultimobici wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:40 pm
milanv wrote::wink:
ultimobici wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:39 am
RDY wrote:
Sure. :wink: Some people are OK. But there appear to be systemic issues, and a lot of frustrated customers (including those on full 12s Di2 gruppos).
Some? More like most. The number of issues we’ve seen since 92xx & 81xx coming out is zero. Not one and we have been selling it in volume since day one.

Of the small number of consumers that have had issues, I wonder how many are down to shoddy installation?


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No, you are not correct, many many people have problems, e. g. wobling cassettes, clicking sounds without solution, bad chainring experience, etc.. You can watch 92xx + 81xx thread. :wink:
The we is not a forum where it is only natural to see more dissatisfied customers than satisfied. It is in the context of sales over the last 6 months. No one return.


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You allow returns of used groupsets?

jeffy
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by jeffy

RDY wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 6:47 pm
and there being all sorts of issues with the cassette and its acroutements. Di2 12s front shifting / FD issues and limitations are way worse than SRAM's problems ever were, IMO.
i wonder if the snafu is hyperglide+ related (would also mean 105 isn't impacted)

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

openwheelracing wrote:
ultimobici wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:40 pm
milanv wrote::wink:
ultimobici wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:39 am

Some? More like most. The number of issues we’ve seen since 92xx & 81xx coming out is zero. Not one and we have been selling it in volume since day one.

Of the small number of consumers that have had issues, I wonder how many are down to shoddy installation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No, you are not correct, many many people have problems, e. g. wobling cassettes, clicking sounds without solution, bad chainring experience, etc.. You can watch 92xx + 81xx thread. :wink:
The we is not a forum where it is only natural to see more dissatisfied customers than satisfied. It is in the context of sales over the last 6 months. No one return.


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You allow returns of used groupsets?
If there’s a warranty issue on a part we deal with it. But not a single one reported so far. It’s almost as if it isn’t as widespread an issue as some are alleging.


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Last edited by ultimobici on Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bedampft
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by bedampft

ultimobici wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:18 am
openwheelracing wrote:
ultimobici wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:40 pm
milanv wrote::wink: No, you are not correct, many many people have problems, e. g. wobling cassettes, clicking sounds without solution, bad chainring experience, etc.. You can watch 92xx + 81xx thread. :wink:
The we is not a forum where it is only natural to see more dissatisfied customers than satisfied. It is in the context of sales over the last 6 months. No one return.


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You allow returns of used groupsets?
I’d there’s a warranty issue on a part we deal with it. But not a single one reported so far. It’s almost as if it isn’t as widespread an issue as some are alleging.


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exactly. Not a single bike or group we sold had any issues either. From what I'm seeing daily, for almost two decades now, on customer bikes the problem(s) are usually due to poor setup. And I'm sorry, but it's very likely that in this forum there are some users who think they're good with these kinda things, but in reality they're lacking some skills.

RDY
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by RDY

Classic circling-of-wagons dealer responses, followed by attempts to discredit those having problems. Either you've been exceptionally lucky, your customers don't ride their bikes, or you're being untruthful. Or a combination thereof.

The problems are extensively documented on this forum and elsewhere. Quite a few by known and well respected mechanics. Plus all the chain drops and shifting problems that have been very visible with WT teams this season. I'll freely admit I'm a shit mechanic ... but the guy who built and services the bike isn't - he's worked as a mechanic for a couple of UCI WT and Conti teams, and in my experience is excellent.

Oh, and I suppose it's about par for the course for Shimano these days, but a rep helpfully suggested that we couldn't expect an XTR 12s chain to work properly with chainrings designed for 11s ... they should probably inform all the individuals (including me) and teams who've been enjoying the benefits of the (excellent) XTR 12s chain on 11s.

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bedampft
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by bedampft

RDY wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:53 pm
Classic circling-of-wagons dealer responses, followed by attempts to discredit those having problems. Either you've been exceptionally lucky, your customers don't ride their bikes, or you're being untruthful. Or a combination thereof.

The problems are extensively documented on this forum and elsewhere. Quite a few by known and well respected mechanics. Plus all the chain drops and shifting problems that have been very visible with WT teams this season. I'll freely admit I'm a shit mechanic ... but the guy who built and services the bike isn't - he's worked as a mechanic for a couple of UCI WT and Conti teams, and in my experience is excellent.

Oh, and I suppose it's about par for the course for Shimano these days, but a rep helpfully suggested that we couldn't expect an XTR 12s chain to work properly with chainrings designed for 11s ... they should probably inform all the individuals (including me) and teams who've been enjoying the benefits of the (excellent) XTR 12s chain on 11s.
Oh ffs :roll: . Thats not what I said. Don't read stuff that isn't there. But nice try to insult someone. Trying to discredit professionals who might actually know what they're doing :roll: :P

There are issues, obviuosly, but they're not as wide spread as you, and others, think. Its just mathematic/ statistic facts. Kinda the same story with failing crankarms. Its happening, yes, but its not a gigantic end of the world issue. Never seen one myself, never met a person who had one broken, or been told by someones friend of a friend of a friend who had it. This forum, like any other, is for Nerds. Not even 5% of end users are active in this kind of way. So wow, great shocker, Nerds talking and complaining about their favourite thing. The rest (majority) is just riding their damn bikes, having a good time, probaly without any issues too.

I know a few WT and ex WT mechanics too, so what? They're good, but usually have no idea outside their sponsored stuff, and not what happens when there's real world wear involved. Let alone what a random Joe is doing, or not doing, with his bike. One bought a XC hardtail off me a few years back. Could've sold him anything, he had no idea and knowlege of the parts on the bike. Only thing he noticed where the small nifthy parts I've done to it. Because to that he could relate.
Mixing and matching is usually somewhat working, but if tolerances are off, it might, or will, not work. Never had issues with 12spd chains on 11spd on my bikes as well, but it doesnt always work on every bike. And there are way to many variables for it to always work.

As for the noise from the new 12spd cassettes, I would start looking at freehub bodys. Especially HG that have been used before. Look at the used material, tolerance, wear, surface finish, bearings and rachet system. I'd say 9 out of 10 times the noise, due to vibration, is coming from the freehub(body) or whats inside, not from the cassette itself. Or maybe its over/under torqued. Chances to have a shitty Zipp/Hunt/Roval/whatever freehub body with not so good tolerance are higher, then having a faulty cassette.
And if the tolerance on the body is off, the cassette not sitting quite as firm as it should, the shifting issue might come from this too. Maybe not all of it, but for some. And of course there could be, are, faulty sprokets or cassetts. Statistically there has to be (so hold your horses).

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RDY
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by RDY

bedampft wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:59 pm
RDY wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 12:53 pm
Classic circling-of-wagons dealer responses, followed by attempts to discredit those having problems. Either you've been exceptionally lucky, your customers don't ride their bikes, or you're being untruthful. Or a combination thereof.

The problems are extensively documented on this forum and elsewhere. Quite a few by known and well respected mechanics. Plus all the chain drops and shifting problems that have been very visible with WT teams this season. I'll freely admit I'm a shit mechanic ... but the guy who built and services the bike isn't - he's worked as a mechanic for a couple of UCI WT and Conti teams, and in my experience is excellent.

Oh, and I suppose it's about par for the course for Shimano these days, but a rep helpfully suggested that we couldn't expect an XTR 12s chain to work properly with chainrings designed for 11s ... they should probably inform all the individuals (including me) and teams who've been enjoying the benefits of the (excellent) XTR 12s chain on 11s.
Oh ffs :roll: . Thats not what I said. Don't read stuff that isn't there. But nice try to insult someone. Trying to discredit professionals who might actually know what they're doing :roll: :P

There are issues, obviuosly, but they're not as wide spread as you, and others, think. Its just mathematic/ statistic facts. Kinda the same story with failing crankarms. Its happening, yes, but its not a gigantic end of the world issue. Never seen one myself, never met a person who had one broken, or been told by someones friend of a friend of a friend who had it. This forum, like any other, is for Nerds. Not even 5% of end users are active in this kind of way. So wow, great shocker, Nerds talking and complaining about their favourite thing. The rest (majority) is just riding their damn bikes, having a good time, probaly without any issues too.

I know a few WT and ex WT mechanics too, so what? They're good, but usually have no idea outside their sponsored stuff, and not what happens when there's real world wear involved. Let alone what a random Joe is doing, or not doing, with his bike. One bought a XC hardtail off me a few years back. Could've sold him anything, he had no idea and knowlege of the parts on the bike. Only thing he noticed where the small nifthy parts I've done to it. Because to that he could relate.
Mixing and matching is usually somewhat working, but if tolerances are off, it might, or will, not work. Never had issues with 12spd chains on 11spd on my bikes as well, but it doesnt always work on every bike. And there are way to many variables for it to always work.

As for the noise from the new 12spd cassettes, I would start looking at freehub bodys. Especially HG that have been used before. Look at the used material, tolerance, wear, surface finish, bearings and rachet system. I'd say 9 out of 10 times the noise, due to vibration, is coming from the freehub(body) or whats inside, not from the cassette itself. Or maybe its over/under torqued. Chances to have a shitty Zipp/Hunt/Roval/whatever freehub body with not so good tolerance are higher, then having a faulty cassette.
And if the tolerance on the body is off, the cassette not sitting quite as firm as it should, the shifting issue might come from this too. Maybe not all of it, but for some. And of course there could be, are, faulty sprokets or cassetts. Statistically there has to be (so hold your horses).
I'm afraid it's exactly what you're doing. I almost mentioned the Shimano crankset issue, as it's a similar situation, which illicited exactly the same kind of responses, and despite your denial here, *IS* a pervasive issue ... and a big one in hot countries.

I think you're conflating lack of product knowledge with not being a good mechanic. I don't think there are many of the kind of 'relic' or numpty types (the kind you're painting a picture of) left on the tour or that get repeatedly hired, and this guy certainly isn't like that.

Re: the cassette, it's likely a number of different issues all combining to cause problems, including the ones you mentioned. Above all, in terms of product function, it may have been a very poor choice for Shimano to stick with HG.

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