OSPW For Shimano 12sp

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wheelbuilder
Posts: 1321
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:10 am

by wheelbuilder

znerken wrote:One thing people don't seem to mention often with CS OSPW is that the open bearings require regular maintenance. I have over a couple of months tested both the original and the new Alpha RS with closed bearings. Yes, they look good, but even after just one ride on dry perfect tarmac and the bearings become scratchy. If you are a perfectionist like me who often take off the chain to rewax, it becomes quite sad to spin the OSPW cogs. I don't know about you, but taking them apart all the time to flush the bearings seems dumb. I guess you can just ignore it, but I can't seem to remember this being an issue with stock dura ace cages? The reason it happens on OSPW bearings is because tiny sand particles get inside. Here is a good video illustrating it: https://www.reddit.com/r/bikewrench/com ... Le74CEoNvF

After one ride there is a certain degree of this
This can not be overstated. As an ex mechanic who knows better, when building my current Diamante I was in a position to buy "halo" type products just to do so. I have the coated race version of the CS BB, and while they spin a long time unloaded, and the cranks do that Instagram "sticky freehub" frewheeling thing that is so popular, the seals need to be removed, flushed, and regreased with pricy thin grease in my experience....
EVERY 3 THOUSAND miles in dry conditions to maintain that performance. I now have a zip lock bag full of seals anticipating what the maintenance requirements are going to be.
Never cheer before you know who is winning

alanyu
Posts: 1714
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

FlatlandClimber wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 2:47 pm
Yoln wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 12:41 pm
That's where I don't agree with you guys. I'm also obsessed with speed, hot-wax my chain, keep my drivetrain sparkling clean, sometimes rides corsa-speed on regular rides just for the love if it's marginal gains, put way too expensive grease on all my bearings, etc...

But after reading about Ineos choice to ditch OSPW, most of the triathletes doing the same on any recent built, and reading recent studies about OSPW, the consensus is that they provide a friction watts gain within the margin of error. And a aero watts loss, not within the margin of error.

So feel free to put them on if it's a piece of jewelry for you, that's all good. But don't come here and convince people that they'll make their bike faster. It's a marketing lie. Net net, taking into account aero drag, they'll make your bike slower.

Friction facts (no owned by Cermaic speed, so potentially biased now), ZFC and Josh Portner (Silca) have addressed independently of each other, that a good OSPW yields a single digits wattage improvement at 250W (usually quoted as 2-4 Watts).
This is non-sense. The drive chain loss with a DA chain treated with UFO v1 and stocked DA9000 system is ~3.1 Watts @ 250 Watts, including BB, chain and RD. Tested as motor driving 250 Watts and measuring power at hub. You try to believe an OSPW will reduce it to 0.X Watts, literally only BB friction?

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FlatlandClimber
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Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

I have quoted the 3 best sources I know of. That's about as much as I can do.
I'd argue your numbers are off. I am pretty sure Adam Keiran quoted 2.5W for the chain alone and just under 98% total drivetrain efficiency.
But I am not really interested looking it up for an argument about literally half a watt 😂
Cervelo P5 Disc (2021) 9.1kg
Factor Ostro Gravel (2023) 8.0kg
S-Works SL8 (2023) 6.3kg

*weights are race ready, size 58/L.
Sold: Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team, Open WI.DE, Émonda, Shiv TT, Crux, Aethos, SL7

Tiforlife
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2024 8:24 pm

by Tiforlife

FlatlandClimber wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 4:11 pm
I have quoted the 3 best sources I know of. That's about as much as I can do.
I'd argue your numbers are off. I am pretty sure Adam Keiran quoted 2.5W for the chain alone and just under 98% total drivetrain efficiency.
But I am not really interested looking it up for an argument about literally half a watt 😂
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/roa ... el-system/

"Poertner agrees that CeramicSpeed’s claims for an OSPW saving 2-4W are overstated and that the figure is indeed closer to 1-2W."

"According to Jason Smith of Ceramic Speed, formerly Friction Facts. The quoted 20W, or 8% loss is based on a new Shimano Ultegra drivetrain and wheels using stock chain grease, brand new bearing seals/grease and Ultegra hubs"

So in other words a stock drivetrain is 92% efficient, not 98%.


I own a Coated OSPW because I got it on closeout from the distributor and I fancied a bit of bike jewelry - to me the biggest negative is the extra noise.

alanyu
Posts: 1714
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

FlatlandClimber wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 4:11 pm
I have quoted the 3 best sources I know of. That's about as much as I can do.
I'd argue your numbers are off. I am pretty sure Adam Keiran quoted 2.5W for the chain alone and just under 98% total drivetrain efficiency.
But I am not really interested looking it up for an argument about literally half a watt 😂
You are saying my numbers, which is presented by CS, is off? ~3.1 W is the number shown by CS when they released UFO v1. :noidea:

BenCousins
Posts: 1446
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:46 am

by BenCousins

FlatlandClimber wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:57 pm
The CeramicSpeed ones work perfectly. There is some gain to be had from lower friction bearings, low chain articulation and potentially lower chain tension.
However, they need more maintenance, a little tougher to set up and don't fit every bike bag.
But I love the looks.
How do you bend your neck to see it while riding?

FlatlandClimber
Posts: 2502
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

BenCousins wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:47 pm
FlatlandClimber wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:57 pm
The CeramicSpeed ones work perfectly. There is some gain to be had from lower friction bearings, low chain articulation and potentially lower chain tension.
However, they need more maintenance, a little tougher to set up and don't fit every bike bag.
But I love the looks.
How do you bend your neck to see it while riding?
The hair cut I have is one I like the look of, despite me not being able to see it for most of the day...
Cervelo P5 Disc (2021) 9.1kg
Factor Ostro Gravel (2023) 8.0kg
S-Works SL8 (2023) 6.3kg

*weights are race ready, size 58/L.
Sold: Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team, Open WI.DE, Émonda, Shiv TT, Crux, Aethos, SL7

BenCousins
Posts: 1446
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:46 am

by BenCousins

FlatlandClimber wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:36 am
BenCousins wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:47 pm
FlatlandClimber wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:57 pm
The CeramicSpeed ones work perfectly. There is some gain to be had from lower friction bearings, low chain articulation and potentially lower chain tension.
However, they need more maintenance, a little tougher to set up and don't fit every bike bag.
But I love the looks.
How do you bend your neck to see it while riding?
The hair cut I have is one I like the look of, despite me not being able to see it for most of the day...
I think the OSPW is not equivalent to hair cut. More like the length of your shoelaces.

Jaisen
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:01 am

by Jaisen

BenCousins wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:44 am
FlatlandClimber wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:36 am
BenCousins wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:47 pm
FlatlandClimber wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:57 pm
The CeramicSpeed ones work perfectly. There is some gain to be had from lower friction bearings, low chain articulation and potentially lower chain tension.
However, they need more maintenance, a little tougher to set up and don't fit every bike bag.
But I love the looks.
How do you bend your neck to see it while riding?
The hair cut I have is one I like the look of, despite me not being able to see it for most of the day...
I think the OSPW is not equivalent to hair cut. More like the length of your shoelaces.
Why are you arguing? They said they like the look, end of story. Would you argue if they told you they liked vanilla ice cream?

Tifosiphil
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:09 pm

by Tifosiphil

BenCousins wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:44 am
FlatlandClimber wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:36 am
BenCousins wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:47 pm
FlatlandClimber wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:57 pm
The CeramicSpeed ones work perfectly. There is some gain to be had from lower friction bearings, low chain articulation and potentially lower chain tension.
However, they need more maintenance, a little tougher to set up and don't fit every bike bag.
But I love the looks.
How do you bend your neck to see it while riding?
The hair cut I have is one I like the look of, despite me not being able to see it for most of the day...
I think the OSPW is not equivalent to hair cut. More like the length of your shoelaces.
I did find that very frustrating when I used to wear Giro Empires :oops:

BenCousins
Posts: 1446
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:46 am

by BenCousins

Jaisen wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:27 pm
BenCousins wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 10:44 am
FlatlandClimber wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2024 9:36 am
BenCousins wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:47 pm


How do you bend your neck to see it while riding?
The hair cut I have is one I like the look of, despite me not being able to see it for most of the day...
I think the OSPW is not equivalent to hair cut. More like the length of your shoelaces.
Why are you arguing? They said they like the look, end of story. Would you argue if they told you they liked vanilla ice cream?
Again, that's not a good comparison. Buying an OSPW for looks is like buying a specific brand of vanilla ice cream based on the logo on the container.

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cyclespeed
Posts: 1176
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:45 am

by cyclespeed

I was never convinced by OSPW cages and never bought one.

They are heavier, use more chain, and have more aero drag. And I personally think they look a bit stupid.

What does make slightly more sense to me is just changing the stock pulley wheels for something a bit nicer, lighter, spinnier.

Extralite make a 12 tooth hybrid ball bearing jockey wheel that is lighter, spins well and is 1 tooth bigger than stock. This is the route I have gone down, for far less cost than an OSPW like CS.

ultimobici1
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:43 pm

by ultimobici1

Just bear in mind that having an OSPW fitted may look good, to you. But it voids any warranty you may need on that expensive mech. All for 3w?!?


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User avatar
cyclespeed
Posts: 1176
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:45 am

by cyclespeed

This paper;

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/29823669.pdf

is very interesting. Lots of in depth testing by a top level engineer. Lengthy reading but lots of useful nuggets in it.

milanv
Posts: 619
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:03 am

by milanv

Nice discussion, guys.
Let's make sense to the thread name...

by Weenie


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