Silca Ultimate Tubeless Sealant

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dedaciai
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by dedaciai

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:11 pm
dedaciai wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:58 pm

Not sure where you live but I live in a very urban environment in the high desert where we have to ride on the shoulders of highways for most of our road rides, mix in a little gravel here and there, and running tubeless is a non starter. Too many of the punctures you get here are too big for tubeless to seal if you're running close to normal road tire pressures (70+psi). I seen countless tubeless tire sealant fails on my rides here. Heck, even the one of the big honchos of Specialized (a young-ish guy that I ride with very often) went back to latex tubes and he's got all the gear for tubeless at his disposal and folks to do it for him.

If you think anywhere in Utah has more man-made junk on the shoulder than the Bay Area, then lol. Plus we have all the detritus from the redwoods/evergreens/ Plus racing in the San Joaquin Valley during goathead season.

I have trained during the winter on tires like the Corsa Speeds...sometimes >90psi.

Sure doesn't sound like a tubeless issue to me. It sounds like operator error, which is common when first trying new things.
Not sure how you can say it's operator error when I worked in a bike shop installing hundreds of tubeless tire setups (so have my tech my friends at Specialized...and still do..and have still gone back to latex tubes). Clearly, our experiences have differed and from this thread folks are experiencing the same things with road tubeless at higher pressures (some have great experiences, others not so much). I agree that tubeless is faster but for ease of repairs and not dealing with cleaning up messses or the slowly added weight of drying sealant on rims and tires, for most folks, running tubeless tires, on hooked rims, with latex tubes is still just as fast with almost no hassle.

And we have all the urban issues of the Bay Area (ridden there too) plus goat heads, lots of rocks...lots of rocks...it's the desert afterall, all with the regular farm equipement/man made issues that you have.

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Lina
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by Lina

dedaciai wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:26 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:11 pm
dedaciai wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:58 pm

Not sure where you live but I live in a very urban environment in the high desert where we have to ride on the shoulders of highways for most of our road rides, mix in a little gravel here and there, and running tubeless is a non starter. Too many of the punctures you get here are too big for tubeless to seal if you're running close to normal road tire pressures (70+psi). I seen countless tubeless tire sealant fails on my rides here. Heck, even the one of the big honchos of Specialized (a young-ish guy that I ride with very often) went back to latex tubes and he's got all the gear for tubeless at his disposal and folks to do it for him.

If you think anywhere in Utah has more man-made junk on the shoulder than the Bay Area, then lol. Plus we have all the detritus from the redwoods/evergreens/ Plus racing in the San Joaquin Valley during goathead season.

I have trained during the winter on tires like the Corsa Speeds...sometimes >90psi.

Sure doesn't sound like a tubeless issue to me. It sounds like operator error, which is common when first trying new things.
Not sure how you can say it's operator error when I worked in a bike shop installing hundreds of tubeless tire setups (so have my tech my friends at Specialized...and still do..and have still gone back to latex tubes). Clearly, our experiences have differed and from this thread folks are experiencing the same things with road tubeless at higher pressures (some have great experiences, others not so much). I agree that tubeless is faster but for ease of repairs and not dealing with cleaning up messses or the slowly added weight of drying sealant on rims and tires, for most folks, running tubeless tires, on hooked rims, with latex tubes is still just as fast with almost no hassle.

And we have all the urban issues of the Bay Area (ridden there too) plus goat heads, lots of rocks...lots of rocks...it's the desert afterall, all with the regular farm equipement/man made issues that you have.
Yeah, surely the Specialized guy went back to latex because he thought tubeless was lacking and not because Specialized went back on tubeless. And no, the specific area of the world where you happen to live doesn't have that much worse roads than literally the rest of the globe that tubeless somehow doesn't work there but it works everywhere else. So that pretty much leaves operator error.

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dedaciai
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by dedaciai

Lina wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:55 pm

Yeah, surely the Specialized guy went back to latex because he thought tubeless was lacking and not because Specialized went back on tubeless. And no, the specific area of the world where you happen to live doesn't have that much worse roads than literally the rest of the globe that tubeless somehow doesn't work there but it works everywhere else. So that pretty much leaves operator error.
Specialized is back on the tubeless train now with their new Roval wheels. Remco and the rest of DQS are on tubeless now and won the WCs on it. All of the Spec guys I ride with (the have a huge presence here in SLC with their facility) are mostly back on latex tubes with tubeless/clincher tires on hooked rims because of the annoyance of dealing with sealant.

Let me be clear, I am not saying tubeless doesn't work. It does work and works great on mtb and gravel bikes (I'd never ride anything else but tubeless on those set ups). However, when riding 25c-ish tires at relatively higher pressures (>70psi), tubeless setups with sealant (and I've tried all the major sealants), do not close any hole greater than a goat head size hole quickly enough where you don't have to stop and pump things up. Any hole greater than a large goat head requires a plug of some sort, and depending on the plug you use, cannot be a permanent solution for the tire + sealant. I rode high-ish pressure road tubeless for 18+months and it it was great..until it wasn't. Sometimes I'd go a few hundred miles without a flat but then there would be that one flat (in my case a few too many), where there the hole would be too big and I'd be spraying sealant all over my bike and the person behind me. I'd hit the hole with a plug it would seal (eventually) and I'd be on my way. But now what? I'd have to go home, clean my bike, clean myself off, apoligize to the person behind me for spraying them, take the plug out, refill with sealant, patch the tire (depending on tire brand the patch sometimes worked, remove old sealant out the tire so it doesn't gain too much weight (and at the rim), etc. For what?...to save a few watts here and there, maybe a flat here or there...no thanks.

Running a latex tube plus your tire of choice means if you get a hole too big in the tire that exposes the tube you just take standard tire boot, or beefy patch, and be on your way. No mess, no apolizing and no cleanup. I get it, folks are heavily invested in their setups (I was too for 18 months) or the promises of new tech, or the time they spent getting everything just right but for me (and for others even on this forum) the hassle isn't worth it for a few watts and maybe getting a few less flats per year. Sure if you're world tour, maybe you are IDK, and looking for all the gainz then have at it.

Honestly, Please tell me where I went wrong especially since everything about riding on the tubeless tire + sealant worked fine except for when there was a hole too big for the sealant to seal? Is there some kind of magic sealant that I don't know about?

FlatlandClimber
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by FlatlandClimber

Just removed a tire after 11 weeks of not moving the bike at all. It had been in there for at least 4 months. Most was dried up, but not all. I have really not had the issue of everything drying up at all, and people here have it happen within like 2 weeks.
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MikeD
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by MikeD

dedaciai wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:39 pm
Lina wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:55 pm

Yeah, surely the Specialized guy went back to latex because he thought tubeless was lacking and not because Specialized went back on tubeless. And no, the specific area of the world where you happen to live doesn't have that much worse roads than literally the rest of the globe that tubeless somehow doesn't work there but it works everywhere else. So that pretty much leaves operator error.
Specialized is back on the tubeless train now with their new Roval wheels. Remco and the rest of DQS are on tubeless now and won the WCs on it. All of the Spec guys I ride with (the have a huge presence here in SLC with their facility) are mostly back on latex tubes with tubeless/clincher tires on hooked rims because of the annoyance of dealing with sealant.

Let me be clear, I am not saying tubeless doesn't work. It does work and works great on mtb and gravel bikes (I'd never ride anything else but tubeless on those set ups). However, when riding 25c-ish tires at relatively higher pressures (>70psi), tubeless setups with sealant (and I've tried all the major sealants), do not close any hole greater than a goat head size hole quickly enough where you don't have to stop and pump things up. Any hole greater than a large goat head requires a plug of some sort, and depending on the plug you use, cannot be a permanent solution for the tire + sealant. I rode high-ish pressure road tubeless for 18+months and it it was great..until it wasn't. Sometimes I'd go a few hundred miles without a flat but then there would be that one flat (in my case a few too many), where there the hole would be too big and I'd be spraying sealant all over my bike and the person behind me. I'd hit the hole with a plug it would seal (eventually) and I'd be on my way. But now what? I'd have to go home, clean my bike, clean myself off, apoligize to the person behind me for spraying them, take the plug out, refill with sealant, patch the tire (depending on tire brand the patch sometimes worked, remove old sealant out the tire so it doesn't gain too much weight (and at the rim), etc. For what?...to save a few watts here and there, maybe a flat here or there...no thanks.

Running a latex tube plus your tire of choice means if you get a hole too big in the tire that exposes the tube you just take standard tire boot, or beefy patch, and be on your way. No mess, no apolizing and no cleanup. I get it, folks are heavily invested in their setups (I was too for 18 months) or the promises of new tech, or the time they spent getting everything just right but for me (and for others even on this forum) the hassle isn't worth it for a few watts and maybe getting a few less flats per year. Sure if you're world tour, maybe you are IDK, and looking for all the gainz then have at it.

Honestly, Please tell me where I went wrong especially since everything about riding on the tubeless tire + sealant worked fine except for when there was a hole too big for the sealant to seal? Is there some kind of magic sealant that I don't know about?
AFAIK, plugs are a permanent fix. I'm not sure why you are removing them and using an internal patch if the plug + sealant sealed the leak. Also, dried sealant does not add much weight to a tire (IMO insignificant); much less than the liquid itself, although this is Weight Weenies and every gram counts, I know. :-)

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dedaciai
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by dedaciai

MikeD wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:10 pm


AFAIK, plugs are a permanent fix. I'm not sure why you are removing them and using an internal patch if the plug + sealant sealed the leak. Also, dried sealant does not add much weight to a tire (IMO insignificant); much less than the liquid itself, although this is Weight Weenies and every gram counts, I know. :-)
I can't stand the "thwap, thwap, thwap" of the plug even when you trim it down (I can still hear/feel it on the tire unless I trim it crazy short). I used dynaplug and, should I flat quickly, that brass, sharp tip could hit the rim and damage my carbon rims. Plus, I also like to rotate my tires so they wear evenly and that becomes a bit of PITA with running tubeless plus sealant, with tubes there's no mess and I can rotate both tires in less than 10 minutes.

Yeah, I have yet to weigh dried sealant from a road tire once it's removed but having held a handful of the stuff from one tire, it's definitely not a trivial amount but it's also not like a lead weight. But the more sealant you add you're just adding more weight and this thread spends a ton of money to keep weight down. lol I know with latex I'm not gonna have to worry about adding weight to the outer part of the wheel every time I refill the tire with new sealant. I know my mtb and gravel tires get dried out sealant too but the relative weight of the wheel/rim of my gravel/mtb are much bigger than the the weight of the sealant.

As this thread and others have suggested people are getting different experiences and mileage out of running high-ish pressure road tubeless as their daily driver. :)

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

The external material of the plug wears away after a few rides… faster if you snip it. DynaPlugs come in soft-most tips a d also rounded “bullet” tips. 40mL of Orange Seal dries into about 7g of latex. It’s a trivial amount of weight, especially when I go through a rear-mounted GP5K S TR in 3-4 months. I can easily rotate tubeless tires in about 10 minutes. You should be taking less time with tubes.

Who the hell rotates “both” tires as you are implying, especially a former bike shop employee. Rotate the rear tire into the trash, rotate the front to the rear, and put a new tire on the front. WTF.

Sure sounds more and more like operator error to me.

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dedaciai
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by dedaciai

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:23 am
The external material of the plug wears away after a few rides… faster if you snip it. DynaPlugs come in soft-most tips a d also rounded “bullet” tips. 40mL of Orange Seal dries into about 7g of latex. It’s a trivial amount of weight, especially when I go through a rear-mounted GP5K S TR in 3-4 months. I can easily rotate tubeless tires in about 10 minutes. You should be taking less time with tubes.

Who the hell rotates “both” tires as you are implying, especially a former bike shop employee. Rotate the rear tire into the trash, rotate the front to the rear, and put a new tire on the front. WTF.

Sure sounds more and more like operator error to me.
Nah. It's not operator error, like I said it works great, until it doesn't. Dynafit plugs only come in round tips for very large holes. Smaller diameter are still pointy and when you cut them real short to stop the thwap it has a chance to fall back inward if your tire goes soft from not riding. I don't ride 3-4 months out of the year because I backcountry ski in the mountains here. I also live somewhere very hot and dry in the summer and so I have to refill sealant more often than in other places so it all adds up. Like I said earlier, different experiences for folks and you can see it from the other comments on this forum.

Regarding the tire rotation, are you not removing two tires? Take on the rear and throw it in the trash (one tire), take the front off and put in on the rear (second tire), put on new tire on the front. Am I am missing something?

Seriously, if it's operator error please give me detailed instructions on how to do it right? I am all ears or YT video. Links? Please explain to me how I can not get sealant all over my bike or someone else riding behind me if I get a hole in my tire that won't seal. Are there better options than plugs for HP road tubeless?

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

dedaciai wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:44 am

Nah. It's not operator error, like I said it works great, until it doesn't. Dynafit plugs only come in round tips for very large holes. Smaller diameter are still pointy and when you cut them real short to stop the thwap it has a chance to fall back inward if your tire goes soft from not riding. I don't ride 3-4 months out of the year because I backcountry ski in the mountains here. I also live somewhere very hot and dry in the summer and so I have to refill sealant more often than in other places so it all adds up. Like I said earlier, different experiences for folks and you can see it from the other comments on this forum.

Regarding the tire rotation, are you not removing two tires? Take on the rear and throw it in the trash (one tire), take the front off and put in on the rear (second tire), put on new tire on the front. Am I am missing something?

Seriously, if it's operator error please give me detailed instructions on how to do it right? I am all ears or YT video. Links? Please explain to me how I can not get sealant all over my bike or someone else riding behind me if I get a hole in my tire that won't seal. Are there better options than plugs for HP road tubeless?

How many times are you planning on being wrong today?

It is basically impossible for a plug to "fall back inward" when there is energized air/gas trying its best to force it out. Orange Seal also acts enough like a glue that it will never happen. I suspect you just made this problem up on the spot. Sometimes the metal tip can come off if you tug on the end of the plug...don't do that.

I live somewhere very hot and dry in the summer. I live somewhere moderate and dry in the winter. Sure, when you aren't riding your bike for an entire season, take something like a KOM Cycling syringe and suck out the sealant. Pour it into a spare bottle if you want.

You also said "even wear," which suggests rotating in place. I've gone back and forth between rotating my front to the rear, rear to the bin to just installing a new rear and leaving the front until it wears out. Since road tubeless tires are generally robust, they rarely suffer from instant flats even when the tread cap is worn out.
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Discodan
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by Discodan

TobinHatesYou wrote:
dedaciai wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:44 am

How many times are you planning on being wrong today?
How many times are you planning on being a dick today? Even for you you seem to be in fine form.

How about you stop attacking people, blaming them for anything you can’t understand, and either be more inquisitive or more quiet?

Edit:sorry Tapatalk being weird, just to be clear my comment was directed at Tobin

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Last edited by Discodan on Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Okay, okay! Road tubeless just doesn't work. Bullet-tipped Dynaplugs don't exist. Plugs can fall inward.

Discodan
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by Discodan

For the record, I wasn’t talking about whether tubeless is effective or not; I’ve been a long-time user (Orange Endurance) with great success. The point was about being civil and treat people on a forum with some respect as you would face to face.


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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

I poured 40mL of Silca into a Dixie cup and in less than 24 hours, it was down to about half that. The carrier had dissolved through the cup and seeped onto the paper towel and paper plate underneath it. Whatever Silca is using as a carrier dissolves through materials at an alarming rate. This includes ink and rim tape adhesives in addition to tire casings.

Stop using this stuff at the very least until a completely reformulated version comes out.
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kroem
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by kroem

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:55 am
I poured 40mL of Silca into a Dixie cup and in less than 24 hours, it was down to about half that. The carrier had dissolved through the cup and seeped onto the paper towel and paper plate underneath it. Whatever Silca is using as a carrier dissolves through materials at an alarming rate. This includes ink and rim tape adhesives in addition to tire casings.

Stop using this stuff at the very least until a completely reformulated version comes out.
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by TobinHatesYou

Bontrager TLR uses glycerin and Silca has the same odor, except much stronger. I haven’t found a MSDS for Silca. Both those sealants have a seepage issue, with Silca’s (again) being worse.

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