new frame rumors for 2023?

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pmprego
Posts: 2513
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:16 pm

by pmprego

wheelsONfire wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:15 pm
pmprego wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:12 pm
wheelsONfire wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:49 am
I personally wouldn't get along with a too far forward position. My bike has a rather slack angle, i even have the saddle pushed all way backwards.
But i also ride a TT saddle which might explain that. For those far forward positions framesets, i would for sure need an offset seatpost.
But yeah, those having the cleats pushed way back might like forward position and lower saddle height.
My point is that a setback seatpost can kind of take you a lot backwards but there isnt much "negative setback" seatposts (sctually, I think giant has this but it's the only one).

In my case, from two different bikefit, I have my saddle slammed forward on a zero setback seatpost and 73.3° sta. I guess I have really long legs compared to unusually short arms.
But how does it make your back feel?
I have test to move my cleats rearward several occasions over the years, but i always end up feeling restrained in some way.
It's like the whole body feels awkward.
I rode more forward before, but i don't know what happened, all of a sudden it just felt bad.
I don't have an aggressive position. The forward position is not to allow some long stem (still 100mm stem with 75reach bar). My short arms makes it that my weight remains well balanced on the bike (being somehow lightweight helps).

TLN
Posts: 630
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:50 pm

by TLN

wheelsONfire wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:01 am
TLN wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:09 am
lazyriderzhao wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:57 pm
any more info about new factor o2?
coming soon, since I just got an extremely good deal on current generation from one of the stores.
Those bikes are way less stiff than Ostro. But it seems common for Factor. Even their combo has been told to not be so stiff.
I wonder if the new gravel stem/bar version (which i think they sell for road bikes to) are stiffer.
This is going to be my wifes all around bike, and not meants to be a crit machine. Trying to build a bike that's light, comfy, pretty :roll: and not break the bank here.

Even for male riders: do you really need bike that is crazy stiff? On paper, I will benefit alot from stiff bike (220lbs rider), but my Orca on fat slicks is way more comfortable and less tiring that my Allez Sprint on 26c tires. But Allez was fun tho.
His: Orbea Orca OMX
Hers: Cannondale Synapse HM Disc

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justkeepedaling
Posts: 1712
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:14 am

by justkeepedaling

TLN wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:07 pm
wheelsONfire wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:01 am
TLN wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:09 am
lazyriderzhao wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:57 pm
any more info about new factor o2?
coming soon, since I just got an extremely good deal on current generation from one of the stores.
Those bikes are way less stiff than Ostro. But it seems common for Factor. Even their combo has been told to not be so stiff.
I wonder if the new gravel stem/bar version (which i think they sell for road bikes to) are stiffer.
This is going to be my wifes all around bike, and not meants to be a crit machine. Trying to build a bike that's light, comfy, pretty :roll: and not break the bank here.

Even for male riders: do you really need bike that is crazy stiff? On paper, I will benefit alot from stiff bike (220lbs rider), but my Orca on fat slicks is way more comfortable and less tiring that my Allez Sprint on 26c tires. But Allez was fun tho.
Can't we have it both ways? I mean, define crazy stiff. My Supersix Evo HM feels stiffer than my CAAD10, but it's more comfy. For me, it's not for power that I like the stiffness, but a certain degree extra makes cornering more surefooted

alanyu
Posts: 1503
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

Yes, comfort in vertical z, but stiff in horizontal x and y. That's what a good bike should be.

If let me choose between an all-stiff frame and an all-noodle frame, I will always choose the all-stiff one, but play with tyre width and psi to offer comfort.

TLN
Posts: 630
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:50 pm

by TLN

justkeepedaling wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 2:41 am
TLN wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:07 pm
wheelsONfire wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:01 am
TLN wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:09 am


coming soon, since I just got an extremely good deal on current generation from one of the stores.
Those bikes are way less stiff than Ostro. But it seems common for Factor. Even their combo has been told to not be so stiff.
I wonder if the new gravel stem/bar version (which i think they sell for road bikes to) are stiffer.
This is going to be my wifes all around bike, and not meants to be a crit machine. Trying to build a bike that's light, comfy, pretty :roll: and not break the bank here.

Even for male riders: do you really need bike that is crazy stiff? On paper, I will benefit alot from stiff bike (220lbs rider), but my Orca on fat slicks is way more comfortable and less tiring that my Allez Sprint on 26c tires. But Allez was fun tho.
Can't we have it both ways? I mean, define crazy stiff. My Supersix Evo HM feels stiffer than my CAAD10, but it's more comfy. For me, it's not for power that I like the stiffness, but a certain degree extra makes cornering more surefooted
I feel like when people say stiffness or comfort they talk about different kind of things and/or vibrations.
We're talking different frequency, amplitude and response curve. I was finally abole to feel smooth ride with wider tires and right pressure (which is not always right): when it all hits right combination, it does feel fast and smooth. I have not tried enough bikes to discuss, but I'd prefer stiff frame on comfy tires: basically eliminate all high-frequency buzz from road.
I believe that cornering stability will be more about geometry, rather than frame itself: HTA, steerer stiffness, legs stiffness, trail, rake and stem.
His: Orbea Orca OMX
Hers: Cannondale Synapse HM Disc

justkeepedaling
Posts: 1712
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:14 am

by justkeepedaling

TLN wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:16 am
justkeepedaling wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 2:41 am
TLN wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:07 pm
wheelsONfire wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:01 am


Those bikes are way less stiff than Ostro. But it seems common for Factor. Even their combo has been told to not be so stiff.
I wonder if the new gravel stem/bar version (which i think they sell for road bikes to) are stiffer.
This is going to be my wifes all around bike, and not meants to be a crit machine. Trying to build a bike that's light, comfy, pretty :roll: and not break the bank here.

Even for male riders: do you really need bike that is crazy stiff? On paper, I will benefit alot from stiff bike (220lbs rider), but my Orca on fat slicks is way more comfortable and less tiring that my Allez Sprint on 26c tires. But Allez was fun tho.
Can't we have it both ways? I mean, define crazy stiff. My Supersix Evo HM feels stiffer than my CAAD10, but it's more comfy. For me, it's not for power that I like the stiffness, but a certain degree extra makes cornering more surefooted
I feel like when people say stiffness or comfort they talk about different kind of things and/or vibrations.
We're talking different frequency, amplitude and response curve. I was finally abole to feel smooth ride with wider tires and right pressure (which is not always right): when it all hits right combination, it does feel fast and smooth. I have not tried enough bikes to discuss, but I'd prefer stiff frame on comfy tires: basically eliminate all high-frequency buzz from road.
I believe that cornering stability will be more about geometry, rather than frame itself: HTA, steerer stiffness, legs stiffness, trail, rake and stem.
Almost always when people say a bike is too stiff, they're referring to lack of comfort. Not that the bike is so stiff the wheels are coming off the ground in bumps while cornering (technically possible, never experienced).

I totally agree that comfort is like 80-90% about the tires (construction, width, pressure in descending prefer of importance). I recently dropped pressure from 110 psi to 90 psi and it made a world of difference. But my Evo HM still takes an additional buzz out of potholes and bumps (same tire, pressure, and essentially geometry as my CAAD10). I'm sure my Gen 2 with the 25.4mm seatpost and skinny fork takes even more out.

That little bit can be the difference between a super long ride and one where I just can't go any further and turn around

TLN
Posts: 630
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:50 pm

by TLN

justkeepedaling wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 8:32 am
[

Almost always when people say a bike is too stiff, they're referring to lack of comfort. Not that the bike is so stiff the wheels are coming off the ground in bumps while cornering (technically possible, never experienced).

I totally agree that comfort is like 80-90% about the tires (construction, width, pressure in descending prefer of importance). I recently dropped pressure from 110 psi to 90 psi and it made a world of difference. But my Evo HM still takes an additional buzz out of potholes and bumps (same tire, pressure, and essentially geometry as my CAAD10). I'm sure my Gen 2 with the 25.4mm seatpost and skinny fork takes even more out.

That little bit can be the difference between a super long ride and one where I just can't go any further and turn around
Removed some overquoting.

I think different parts of bike responsible for muting different kinds of vibrations. Its obvious that you mute road buzz with bigger tires. Less obvious how to deal with the rest.

I also disagee(sorta) that comfort is z axis. Z axis movement is also responsible for translating pedaling into moving forward.

Ps. I felt less comfortable on 25.4 seatpost on a trainer(wifes bike). It always felt "too flexy" for me.
His: Orbea Orca OMX
Hers: Cannondale Synapse HM Disc

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

alanyu wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:05 am
Yes, comfort in vertical z, but stiff in horizontal x and y. That's what a good bike should be.

If let me choose between an all-stiff frame and an all-noodle frame, I will always choose the all-stiff one, but play with tyre width and psi to offer comfort.
Torsional/ bending sideways stiffness for people who don't get your description. That's why we see the box like (squared or rectangular) shape of the downtube of some bikes (not aero). Even chainstays have this at times, but kind of rounded.
I think for example Factor one have dual downtubes for this purpose. But is marketed like having it for aero.
Toptubes flat and wide are made that way to allow most possible flex. A super stiff seatmast tube will generate pedal buzz right up your spine (also vibrations from rear wheel), i guess this is also partly why Trek had those elastomers between seatmast tube and toptube. Scotts latest Foil have a seatpost made to reduce this. In short, the more stiffness here gives you ride fatigue as it hit your back.

Also, disc brake frames and forks must have a layup and probably gain from a shape allowing more stiffness. This is something a rim brake design doesn't need.
This is also why a disc brake frameset/ fork is way more difficult to have a ride feel like a rim brake bike.
I guess that fat tire trend is a dream for frame designers. Because it saves them alot of engineering which i don't think they would solve.
Yes, for the newbees or those that simply don't care as much for ride feel.
Argonaut as an example, aren't really having that ideal of riding a stone. Their design ideal is to offer a great ride feel.
That is why some love them and some simply say, they aren't like yada yada bikes and therefore not good.
They are probably better to be honest. No, i don't know any data that actually, without question can say a super stiff bike is better.
A sprinter might think so, because they want a weapon ment to propel as fast as possible.
Look at this, why is it very difficult to review a wheelset?
If the bike is very stiff, it's more likely a less stiff/ harsh wheelset will make the bike feel better.
A softer riding bike, might feel faster with wheels which is super stiff. Like the Bike ahead design that Black inc have copied.
Or Lightweight, Mavics CCU etc.
Why did Cannondale go for 25.4mm seatpost as an example. To reduce rider fatigue as much as they could.
An aero seatpost will never feel like a 27.2mm version with a good designed seat mast tube.
It's by design of the shapes of aero, not possible...
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

lazyriderzhao
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:48 pm

by lazyriderzhao

Finally it's named as 795 Blade RS
微信图片_20230610125623.jpg

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C36
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Van Rysel RCR on Tour: 207W that is an impressive performance.

- as aero as the foil/ dogma F / SSevo4/ aeroad / cube litening (206/208w)
- ahead of sl7 (210w), Orca aero (212)
- way ahead TCR, adict, SSevo3, xelius
- within 2w of S5

A bit on the flexier side compared to others but not as flexi than latest SS fork.

Image

Here tested with a 350mm bar so definitively play in their favour in the wind tunnel

toxin
Posts: 495
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:56 pm

by toxin

Super narrow bars, turned-in and parallel to the ground hoods... Way more test optimised than most every other bike on test.

Probably still a decently fast bike either way.

robeambro
Posts: 1829
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

toxin wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:16 am
Super narrow bars, turned-in and parallel to the ground hoods... Way more test optimised than most every other bike on test.

Probably still a decently fast bike either way.
I'm not sure the turned-in hoods would warrant an aero improvement with a half mannequin?

It also seems to have a -17d stem, seemingly running parallel to the ground, but surprisingly comes with a full stack of spacers. So yeah definitely "lab test optimised" but indeed a decently fast bike nevertheless.

User avatar
C36
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Just ran a quick check versus the SSEvo4 tested last month
- both 9000€,
- RCR is in Dura Ace the SS in Ultégra
- RCR has Swissside (DT ARC sisters) the SS fairly heavy cannondale wheels
- we have only 1 size geo for now, but on 56/M the RCR is 20mm lower (seems the top cap flushes the frame more than the cannondale)

The SS seems way overpriced for an Ultegra / in-house wheels, RCR Ultegra will be around 5500€. on top of my head I see the Cube Litening ultegra, the aeroad SLX and the Giant Propel advanced 1 to be similarly aero but all heavier (and a bit stiffer).

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C36
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

lazyriderzhao wrote:Finally it's named as 795 Blade RS
微信图片_20230610125623.jpg
Shame it wasn’t tested this month but rather the older generation in Tour mag.

X5SAE
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2023 7:16 pm

by X5SAE

robeambro wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:22 am
It also seems to have a -17d stem, seemingly running parallel to the ground, but surprisingly comes with a full stack of spacers.
Looks more like a -10/-12 degree one to me. I am running a -17 deg stem on my bike and it looks a bit more extreme than that.
Last edited by X5SAE on Sat Jun 10, 2023 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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