new frame rumors for 2023?

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bikeboy1tr
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by bikeboy1tr

wheelsONfire wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 10:11 pm
Maddie wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 7:45 pm
Because they are race bikes, not endurance bikes
Yeah, but these are like 400mm reach in sufficent stack.
Perhaps Pinarello at 388mm reach isn't a race bike in your book.
Endurance bikes are almost always to high instead.
I look for frames that doesn't need super short stems and loads of spacers. That is not a fitting frame.
Weight R/F, a stem length (cockpit reach) that suits the head ange and rake of fork is kind of key.
Not just building a bike and saying i can make it fit so it fits.
How the bike end up is kind of prio 1. Atleast to me.
Argonaut proven geometry and old Colnago have and had good geometry and Time is also rather good.
I do get that guys like you see it differently, but i see most use short stems on fast steering bikes.
Not really optimal. Best is to use scales (2) and check your weight balance on a bike. Then you'll see that most are off.
Because they have too much weight on the rear end.

ST are getting steeper on most of the new bikes as well. The new Colnagos are going the same way. Its hard to find much for traditional geometry anymore at least not for race bikes on the high end.
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Lina
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by Lina

Race bike geometries are made for racing. And as understanding of aerodynamics and how to optimize W/CdA improves it means that bike geometries also change. New bikes are made for a position further on top of the BB than older bikes. That means steeper seat tubes and longer reach.

by Weenie


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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Seeing it in track now too. Track bikes are butting up right against the 650mm front-center limit and riders are butting up against the 100mm limit for the tip of the bars relative to the front axle.

On the road, bikes like the Scott Foil are leading the way. Scott doesn't list the real STA, only vSTA, but the real STA is probably around 76-77deg. The 52cm bike has a 389/527mm reach/stack combo and the 49cm is 388/511mm. Both have wheelbases in excess of 990mm.

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wheelbuilder
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by wheelbuilder

Yes. The guys with reverse offset installed posts and saddles slammed forward with 140 stems 15 years ago were right on.
Never cheer before you know who is winning

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 10:33 pm
wheelsONfire wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 10:11 pm

Yeah, but these are like 400mm reach in sufficent stack.
Perhaps Pinarello at 388mm reach isn't a race bike in your book.

Contemporary reach:stack ratios are becoming insufficient for pro/competition fitting trends. Look at the growing number of pros using 130mm, 140mm or even longer stems like the 170mm used by Jonas Rutsch.
I understand that, but the typical customers who actually pay for the bike, what do they require?
I get why people (some anyway) ride around with ill-fitting bikes.
But i guess this is how it is.
It's like buying pants i can fat up +10kg in, hey, there's a belt you can use..
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

Sockman
Posts: 112
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by Sockman

wheelsONfire wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 9:56 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 10:33 pm
wheelsONfire wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 10:11 pm

Yeah, but these are like 400mm reach in sufficent stack.
Perhaps Pinarello at 388mm reach isn't a race bike in your book.

Contemporary reach:stack ratios are becoming insufficient for pro/competition fitting trends. Look at the growing number of pros using 130mm, 140mm or even longer stems like the 170mm used by Jonas Rutsch.
I understand that, but the typical customers who actually pay for the bike, what do they require?
I get why people (some anyway) ride around with ill-fitting bikes.
But i guess this is how it is.
It's like buying pants i can fat up +10kg in, hey, there's a belt you can use..
You SHOULD buy the bike that best fits your use case scenario- ie; most people should ride endurance bikes, not high end race bikes with agressive geometry that probaby require time spent in a wind tunnell to optimise the position. People like nice things though, whatever!

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

wheelsONfire wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 9:56 am

I understand that, but the typical customers who actually pay for the bike, what do they require?
I get why people (some anyway) ride around with ill-fitting bikes.
But i guess this is how it is.
It's like buying pants i can fat up +10kg in, hey, there's a belt you can use..

These bikes are designed to be raced. They’re optimized for people with elite flexibility/mobility. So what if the average customer is buying the bike as a trophy? It doesn’t make a lick of difference if they stick 4cm worth of spacers on the bike. Endurance bikes exist and people should buy them.

I wish Trek would go back to offering H1 and H2 frame options because honestly H1.5 is still too aggressive for most people buying road bikes, but it’s not aggressive enough for some.

The De Rosa 70 geometry looks merely OK to me, could be longer imo.

Lina
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by Lina

Also with cable integration there is now a minimum spacer stack you need to have on the bike. Back before integration you could just chuck away all the spacers and slam the stem all the way to the headtube. So the same stack number on a non integrated bike isn't actually the same as one on an integrated one.

Offering two different fits like Trek used to do would be the optimal. Because people want a bike that looks like the race bike but most people would be better off with the endurance bike. If brands offered the same bike in two different fits you could sell the bike that looks like a race bike to the buyer that wants it and it could actually fit them. If you try to go somewhere in the middle it's too aggressive for the average buyer but at the same time it's not aggressive enough for the people that want an aggressive fit.

pmprego
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by pmprego

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 11:05 am
wheelsONfire wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 9:56 am

I understand that, but the typical customers who actually pay for the bike, what do they require?
I get why people (some anyway) ride around with ill-fitting bikes.
But i guess this is how it is.
It's like buying pants i can fat up +10kg in, hey, there's a belt you can use..

These bikes are designed to be raced. They’re optimized for people with elite flexibility/mobility. So what if the average customer is buying the bike as a trophy? It doesn’t make a lick of difference if they stick 4cm worth of spacers on the bike. Endurance bikes exist and people should buy them.

I wish Trek would go back to offering H1 and H2 frame options because honestly H1.5 is still too aggressive for most people buying road bikes, but it’s not aggressive enough for some.

The De Rosa 70 geometry looks merely OK to me, could be longer imo.
Damn you streched out guy!! :mrgreen:

W.r.t. the endurance bike... i keep saying that problem imo is that brands usually target those as cheaper, heavier alternatives. I guess the new-ish "all-road" category might be the new "endurance bikes that is actually cool to buy".

RDY
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by RDY

It should be a lot more size adaptive ... the proportion of taller people high on the ape index is much lower (rather the opposite). Some bikes take no account of this, most a little bit and not enough - others do significantly reduce reach relative to stack on the 58 and 61.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

I would go for 55-56 size generally, but my saddle height is 77cm approximatedly.
Some have saddle at 75cm, so it would be a 2cm difference directly.
Trek H2 would require a -12 stem.
Yeah, "problem" with many Endurance bikes are that they're not really like a race bike.
I would have no problem using a Trek H2 if you could have a separate combo (stem+handlebar) that works with the integration.
Looking at Bassos options, the -10 stem (integrated bar) will be too high i guess.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

wheelsONfire wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 8:52 pm
I would go for 55-56 size generally, but my saddle height is 77cm approximatedly.
Some have saddle at 75cm, so it would be a 2cm difference directly.
Trek H2 would require a -12 stem.
Yeah, "problem" with many Endurance bikes are that they're not really like a race bike.
I would have no problem using a Trek H2 if you could have a separate combo (stem+handlebar) that works with the integration.
Looking at Bassos options, the -10 stem (integrated bar) will be too high i guess.

I’m not seeing the problem here.

56cm H2 with a -12deg 120mm stem is roughly the same as 56cm H1 with a -6deg 120mm stem + 16mm in spacers.

With a 100mm stem, you’d need 18mm in spacers. That’s totally acceptable unless your pride can’t swallow <20mm in spacers.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 9:29 pm
wheelsONfire wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 8:52 pm
I would go for 55-56 size generally, but my saddle height is 77cm approximatedly.
Some have saddle at 75cm, so it would be a 2cm difference directly.
Trek H2 would require a -12 stem.
Yeah, "problem" with many Endurance bikes are that they're not really like a race bike.
I would have no problem using a Trek H2 if you could have a separate combo (stem+handlebar) that works with the integration.
Looking at Bassos options, the -10 stem (integrated bar) will be too high i guess.

I’m not seeing the problem here.

56cm H2 with a -12deg 120mm stem is roughly the same as 56cm H1 with a -6deg 120mm stem + 16mm in spacers.

With a 100mm stem, you’d need 18mm in spacers. That’s totally acceptable unless your pride can’t swallow <20mm in spacers.
H1.5 is higher than a H1?
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

wheelsONfire wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 10:21 pm

H1.5 is higher than a H1?

So? You have the fortune of being in the middle where both H1 and H2 can work. It's clear that H1.5 and similar geometries across the brands don't fit a decent number of pros/competitive cyclists. For some even H1 just barely works out.

pmprego
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by pmprego

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 10:55 pm
wheelsONfire wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 10:21 pm

H1.5 is higher than a H1?

So? You have the fortune of being in the middle where both H1 and H2 can work. Try being at the extreme where you need a slammed 150mm -17deg stem for H1 to work.

It's clear that H1.5 and similar geometries across the brands don't fit a decent number of pros/competitive cyclists.
Yes but still... These brands are for profit companies. Maybe it's just not profitable to have h1 and h2. It's business. And pro riders just have to adapt. That's why they get paid to ride bikes and the huge rest pay for the bikes themselves. You cater your product to your (paying) clients.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

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