Back by popular demand, the general all-things Road forum!
Moderator: robbosmans
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jih
- Posts: 598
- Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:54 pm
by jih on Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:11 pm
RDY wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:02 pm
It's not theft, and there are no direct copies of either the Coefficient bar, the Deda Gera, or similar ones. Even if there were, it's not theft. If they market and brand them as the original, then it is copyright 'theft' / infringement.
How close do they have to be before we call it a copy? It is *extremely* similar to the Coefficient AR (note - not RR). I have a hard time believing they weren't just copying the existing bar. The indents in the drops are not a common feature and I'm hard pressed to find any differences in the shapes.
Coefficient bar:
Ali express bar:
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RDY
- Posts: 2404
- Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm
by RDY on Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:15 pm
jih wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:11 pm
RDY wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:02 pm
It's not theft, and there are no direct copies of either the Coefficient bar, the Deda Gera, or similar ones. Even if there were, it's not theft. If they market and brand them as the original, then it is copyright 'theft' / infringement.
How close do they have to be before we call it a copy? It is *extremely* similar to the Coefficient AR (note - not RR). I have a hard time believing they weren't just copying the existing bar. The indents in the drops are not a common feature and I'm hard pressed to find any differences in the shapes.
Coefficient bar:
Ali express bar:
It looks like the Gera, not the Coefficient bar. And geo is totally different. Backsweep, upsweep and downsweep are not original concepts. The thumb indents on the drops were done decades (at least) ago on track bars.
I've also repeatedly seen people getting angry about flared drop bars concept being 'copied' ... they've been around since, what, the 1910s? 1920s?
Look at those guys in the middle. It's outrageous. Flare, downsweep, probably some backsweep by the look of it. How can they ride a copy of an original 2010s-2020s concept in competition. They should be banned.
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TobinHatesYou
- Posts: 12550
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm
by TobinHatesYou on Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:33 pm
It’s actually insane to me that you are looking at the same images as we are and seeing a copy of the Deda Gera and not the Coefficient AR. Like this can’t possibly be what you actually think and you just thought we were comparing the Ali product to the RR bar, completely unaware of the AR’s existence. Then once we pointed out the AR bar, you refused to back down.
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RDY
- Posts: 2404
- Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm
by RDY on Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:40 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:33 pm
It’s actually
insane to me that you are looking at the same images as we are and seeing a copy of the Deda Gera and not the Coefficient AR. Like this can’t possibly be what you actually think and you just thought we were comparing the Ali product to the RR bar, completely unaware of the AR’s existence. Then once we pointed out the AR bar, you refused to back down.
It's not a direct copy of either. What is insane is that you think there are still original concepts in basic drop bars. There are some nice overall packages, which these are, but that's it.
What's the last innovation? The Speeco Breakaways? And it's not really innovation so much as trying to avoid constrictive UCI rules. It's an example of innovation being stifled - both coming up with it in the first place, and then the UCI summarily banning it. The basic concept is a less exaggerated version of various track or tri positions.
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spartacus
- Posts: 1049
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm
by spartacus on Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:26 pm
glepore wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:39 pm
RDY wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:52 pm
Not everybody has high income and lives in a high income country, though if you check both boxes and look at the performance bike market, it's easy to forget that.
Unless original designers have a massive chip on their shoulder, they probably understand this.
Its a handlebar shape. Numerous ones like it exist, such as the Gela etc. Its not patentable. Its not counterfeit. I agree with RDY, I'm on a retirement budget, and yeah, if the same product can be produced for $50 vs $300, then sure, I'm buying the $50 product. And as to building weapons to support Russia, c'mon man. Its a global economy. The iphone is produced there, do you boycott Apple because you're supporting the Chinese economy otherwise? Solar panels? I could go on.
Last I'll say on the subject. We've drifted far enough.
You're gonna whine about not being able to afford bars when this is in your signature:
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Berk custom (5.6); Serotta Ottrott(6.
; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record
Give us all a break. You're just as provelaged as the rest of us, albeit with a less developed sense of right and wrong.
Anyway sorry to keep going OT but
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jih
- Posts: 598
- Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:54 pm
by jih on Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:05 pm
Photoshop the logos off and I wouldn't know which is which, other than one visible difference - the hole for the cables in the aliexpress model are in the place you might want to clamp accessories to the bar, which is a worse design if you need lights or an clip-on aerobar. Other than that I'd be hard pressed to tell them apart visually.
There seem to be two questions:
1) is it a copy?
2) is it ok to copy since drop bars have been around for a long time and few ideals are truly new.
I'd say that 1 is a matter of fact - it is very clearly and objectively a copy, beyond reasonable denial. Question 2 is a matter of opinion, but I'd say that copying generic features (like flare or backsweep) is fine, but copying a specific model almost exactly without adding anything new isn't fair game.
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LanceLegstrong
- Posts: 1145
- Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:35 pm
by LanceLegstrong on Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:12 pm
spartacus wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:26 pm
glepore wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:39 pm
RDY wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:52 pm
Not everybody has high income and lives in a high income country, though if you check both boxes and look at the performance bike market, it's easy to forget that.
Unless original designers have a massive chip on their shoulder, they probably understand this.
Its a handlebar shape. Numerous ones like it exist, such as the Gela etc. Its not patentable. Its not counterfeit. I agree with RDY, I'm on a retirement budget, and yeah, if the same product can be produced for $50 vs $300, then sure, I'm buying the $50 product. And as to building weapons to support Russia, c'mon man. Its a global economy. The iphone is produced there, do you boycott Apple because you're supporting the Chinese economy otherwise? Solar panels? I could go on.
Last I'll say on the subject. We've drifted far enough.
You're gonna whine about not being able to afford bars when this is in your signature:
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Berk custom (5.6); Serotta Ottrott(6.
; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record
Give us all a break. You're just as provelaged as the rest of us, albeit with a less developed sense of right and wrong.
Anyway sorry to keep going OT but
I'm sorry, but I can't help but think of this.
I'll take a $500 savings on a handlebar every day. Or a couple hundred on a seatpost. Things like that add up and allow me to buy something else like a name brand frame or electronic shifting. It sucks that I have to go elsewhere but prices are what they are.
Specialized Tarmac SL7
Specialized Crux
Velobuild 168
Trek Checkpoint ALR
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spartacus
- Posts: 1049
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm
by spartacus on Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:24 pm
LanceLegstrong wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:12 pm
spartacus wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:26 pm
glepore wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:39 pm
RDY wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:52 pm
Not everybody has high income and lives in a high income country, though if you check both boxes and look at the performance bike market, it's easy to forget that.
Unless original designers have a massive chip on their shoulder, they probably understand this.
Its a handlebar shape. Numerous ones like it exist, such as the Gela etc. Its not patentable. Its not counterfeit. I agree with RDY, I'm on a retirement budget, and yeah, if the same product can be produced for $50 vs $300, then sure, I'm buying the $50 product. And as to building weapons to support Russia, c'mon man. Its a global economy. The iphone is produced there, do you boycott Apple because you're supporting the Chinese economy otherwise? Solar panels? I could go on.
Last I'll say on the subject. We've drifted far enough.
You're gonna whine about not being able to afford bars when this is in your signature:
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Berk custom (5.6); Serotta Ottrott(6.
; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record
Give us all a break. You're just as provelaged as the rest of us, albeit with a less developed sense of right and wrong.
Anyway sorry to keep going OT but
I'm sorry, but I can't help but think of this.
I'll take a $500 savings on a handlebar every day. Or a couple hundred on a seatpost. Things like that add up and allow me to buy something else like a name brand frame or electronic shifting. It sucks that I have to go elsewhere but prices are what they are.
OK we get it, you guys DGAF, enjoy your stolen IP and supporting anonymous alibaba companies instead of people that actually design and test products and attempt to make a living. It's a race to the bottom and you guys win the prize!
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glepore
- Posts: 1410
- Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:42 pm
- Location: Virginia USA
by glepore on Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:16 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:17 pm
The bars don’t even cost $600. I don’t know where that number came from.
My bad. They're 600 Aud. I didn't realize that's how the website quoted pricing.
So, apples to apples, the Coefficient AR is around 200 USD, so the savings is only $150 USD
Guilty of having some nice bikes, none new, groups not new, wheels neither, and a bunch of Chinese seatposts and bars.
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Berk custom (5.6); Serotta Ottrott(6.
; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record
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Lina
- Posts: 1124
- Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm
by Lina on Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:53 pm
jih wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:17 pm
This looks a lot like Coefficient's gravel bar.
I like the look of the RR. Only thing stopping me is the drop of 127mm is 4mm more than I currently have with ErgoNovas at 123mm.
4 mm is nothing. You could pretty much nullify that difference by double wrapping the drops.
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Lina
- Posts: 1124
- Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm
by Lina on Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:00 pm
RDY wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:40 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:33 pm
It’s actually
insane to me that you are looking at the same images as we are and seeing a copy of the Deda Gera and not the Coefficient AR. Like this can’t possibly be what you actually think and you just thought we were comparing the Ali product to the RR bar, completely unaware of the AR’s existence. Then once we pointed out the AR bar, you refused to back down.
It's not a direct copy of either. What is insane is that you think there are still original concepts in basic drop bars. There are some nice overall packages, which these are, but that's it.
What's the last innovation? The Speeco Breakaways? And it's not really innovation so much as trying to avoid constrictive UCI rules. It's an example of innovation being stifled - both coming up with it in the first place, and then the UCI summarily banning it. The basic concept is a less exaggerated version of various track or tri positions.
Just a quick correction. The Speeco bars were banned even before anyone thought about them. Using them as designed has been banned in the rules for ages, UCI just didn't choose to enforce the rules as strictly as they do now when everyone wasn't using puppy paws.
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wheelbuilder
- Posts: 1212
- Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:10 am
by wheelbuilder on Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:51 pm
dsk28 wrote:Came here to learn about the bars, did not enjoy the massive off topic discussion.
Oh! That's good to know.
Sent from my SM-A526U1 using Tapatalk
Never cheer before you know who is winning
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jih
- Posts: 598
- Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:54 pm
by jih on Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:21 pm
Lina wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:53 pm
jih wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:17 pm
This looks a lot like Coefficient's gravel bar.
I like the look of the RR. Only thing stopping me is the drop of 127mm is 4mm more than I currently have with ErgoNovas at 123mm.
4 mm is nothing. You could pretty much nullify that difference by double wrapping the drops.
It isn't a lot, but at the end of a long ride doing a mountain descent over 5 or 6km, I already find the drops a touch low for prolonged use. I know it's about the same as a single 5mm spacer under the stem.
I could do some more core work of course, but I'm here to buy speed, not work for it!