My Fred Whitton Journey...

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raggedtrousers
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:29 pm

by raggedtrousers

I've not done the Fred, but have ridden pretty extensively in the Lakes for over a decade and am familiar all the main climbs/descents. FWIW, I'm 40, just over 4w/kg FTP (290w@70kg). My tips:
1. Use a disc brake bike.
2. Run tubeless and 28c+ tyres.
3. Having a 1:1 low gear really helps with pacing, and if you have the option to run lower, do it (my TCR has AXS,48/35 at the front and I chuck on a 10-36 cassette for any trips to the Lakes).
4. However slow you think you need to start, start slower. Lots of riders will hare off: I promise you'll catch almost all of them later with a tortoise/hare approach. Terrain aside, this is a 7hr ride if you're quick: no one can hammer it for that length of time.
5. Fuel and drink extensively.
6. Stay focused after the climbs. After some of them, you're pretty f*cked, but you need to stay on task because the descents are seriously challenging and potentially dangerous. Also stay well clear of any sketchy looking descenders: stop and let them get well ahead if necessary.
7. Make absolutely sure your bike is mechanically A1. I'd get new pads in particular and get the LBS to give everything a proper check over beforehand.

Good luck all!

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Jimmyrn85
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:01 pm

by Jimmyrn85

raggedtrousers wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 7:37 pm
I've not done the Fred, but have ridden pretty extensively in the Lakes for over a decade and am familiar all the main climbs/descents. FWIW, I'm 40, just over 4w/kg FTP (290w@70kg). My tips:
1. Use a disc brake bike.
2. Run tubeless and 28c+ tyres.
3. Having a 1:1 low gear really helps with pacing, and if you have the option to run lower, do it (my TCR has AXS,48/35 at the front and I chuck on a 10-36 cassette for any trips to the Lakes).
4. However slow you think you need to start, start slower. Lots of riders will hare off: I promise you'll catch almost all of them later with a tortoise/hare approach. Terrain aside, this is a 7hr ride if you're quick: no one can hammer it for that length of time.
5. Fuel and drink extensively.
6. Stay focused after the climbs. After some of them, you're pretty f*cked, but you need to stay on task because the descents are seriously challenging and potentially dangerous. Also stay well clear of any sketchy looking descenders: stop and let them get well ahead if necessary.
7. Make absolutely sure your bike is mechanically A1. I'd get new pads in particular and get the LBS to give everything a proper check over beforehand.

Good luck all!
Your power is awesome! And you still recommend easy gears, that's insane haha.

Why do you recommend tubeless (never tried it!)

Jimmyrn85
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:01 pm

by Jimmyrn85

Double post soz

bobones
Posts: 1271
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

raggedtrousers wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 7:37 pm
I've not done the Fred, but have ridden pretty extensively in the Lakes for over a decade and am familiar all the main climbs/descents. FWIW, I'm 40, just over 4w/kg FTP (290w@70kg). My tips:
1. Use a disc brake bike.
2. Run tubeless and 28c+ tyres.
3. Having a 1:1 low gear really helps with pacing, and if you have the option to run lower, do it (my TCR has AXS,48/35 at the front and I chuck on a 10-36 cassette for any trips to the Lakes).
4. However slow you think you need to start, start slower. Lots of riders will hare off: I promise you'll catch almost all of them later with a tortoise/hare approach. Terrain aside, this is a 7hr ride if you're quick: no one can hammer it for that length of time.
5. Fuel and drink extensively.
6. Stay focused after the climbs. After some of them, you're pretty f*cked, but you need to stay on task because the descents are seriously challenging and potentially dangerous. Also stay well clear of any sketchy looking descenders: stop and let them get well ahead if necessary.
7. Make absolutely sure your bike is mechanically A1. I'd get new pads in particular and get the LBS to give everything a proper check over beforehand.

Good luck all!
Great advice, thanks!

Do you have any tips for riding the steepest slopes? I am not used to those gradients but it seems you need to be out of the saddle before the hairpins to keep control of the front wheel and then drop a cog or two before standing up. I was totally hammering it on the first part of Hardknott just after the cattle grid and was almost exhausted by the time I could sit down and get some recovery. Is there a technique to riding these slower and with more control without falling off?

expatscot
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:20 pm
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

by expatscot

bobones wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 10:27 pm
raggedtrousers wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 7:37 pm
I've not done the Fred, but have ridden pretty extensively in the Lakes for over a decade and am familiar all the main climbs/descents. FWIW, I'm 40, just over 4w/kg FTP (290w@70kg). My tips:
1. Use a disc brake bike.
2. Run tubeless and 28c+ tyres.
3. Having a 1:1 low gear really helps with pacing, and if you have the option to run lower, do it (my TCR has AXS,48/35 at the front and I chuck on a 10-36 cassette for any trips to the Lakes).
4. However slow you think you need to start, start slower. Lots of riders will hare off: I promise you'll catch almost all of them later with a tortoise/hare approach. Terrain aside, this is a 7hr ride if you're quick: no one can hammer it for that length of time.
5. Fuel and drink extensively.
6. Stay focused after the climbs. After some of them, you're pretty f*cked, but you need to stay on task because the descents are seriously challenging and potentially dangerous. Also stay well clear of any sketchy looking descenders: stop and let them get well ahead if necessary.
7. Make absolutely sure your bike is mechanically A1. I'd get new pads in particular and get the LBS to give everything a proper check over beforehand.

Good luck all!
Great advice, thanks!

Do you have any tips for riding the steepest slopes? I am not used to those gradients but it seems you need to be out of the saddle before the hairpins to keep control of the front wheel and then drop a cog or two before standing up. I was totally hammering it on the first part of Hardknott just after the cattle grid and was almost exhausted by the time I could sit down and get some recovery. Is there a technique to riding these slower and with more control without falling off?
On the steepest climbs, it's about survival.
Chuck it in the lowest gear, early on.
It's a balance between seated power (you'll potentially lift the front end if weight too far back) vs rear wheel slip if you're out of the saddle and too far over the front wheel. Good tyres help a bit.
Watch out for riders just ahead who come to a sudden standstill and leave you nowhere to go. Always try and have a bit of safety.
Watch out for toe overlap if weaving at slow speed across the road. That can get embarrasing.
Max efforts on the steepest sections, just trying to get the cranks turning at slower than walking speeds. Use any slightly flatter sections as temporary respite.
Speed up the hill is utterly irrelevant - the key is slow relentless forward motion.
You can try and take the widest part of the road round the hairpins. Along with all the other riders, and lots of people pushing.
If you put a foot down on a steep section, it's almost impossible to get going again. MOVE OUT OF THE WAY IMMEDIATELY then take a short breather and walk to the next gentler gradient.
If you get cramp on a ramp, there's nothing you can do about it.

I've done most of the route, albeit many years ago. The descents are really tricky, particularly Honister. You will pick up speed incredibly quickly, and there are a nasty mix of poor surfaces, tightening bends, walls and off camber sections. You'll also likely have loons shooting past on both sides of you.
Look 695 aerolight eTap 11
Boardman TTE eTap 11
Brompton S2 LX ti custom
Trek 5500 1994 Sram Red 10
Boardman CXR9.8 eTap 11
Open UPPER - DA 9270
Ridley x-fire Sram Red 10

and lots of non- WW others.

raggedtrousers
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:29 pm

by raggedtrousers

Jimmyrn85 wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 10:19 pm
raggedtrousers wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 7:37 pm
I've not done the Fred, but have ridden pretty extensively in the Lakes for over a decade and am familiar all the main climbs/descents. FWIW, I'm 40, just over 4w/kg FTP (290w@70kg). My tips:
1. Use a disc brake bike.
2. Run tubeless and 28c+ tyres.
3. Having a 1:1 low gear really helps with pacing, and if you have the option to run lower, do it (my TCR has AXS,48/35 at the front and I chuck on a 10-36 cassette for any trips to the Lakes).
4. However slow you think you need to start, start slower. Lots of riders will hare off: I promise you'll catch almost all of them later with a tortoise/hare approach. Terrain aside, this is a 7hr ride if you're quick: no one can hammer it for that length of time.
5. Fuel and drink extensively.
6. Stay focused after the climbs. After some of them, you're pretty f*cked, but you need to stay on task because the descents are seriously challenging and potentially dangerous. Also stay well clear of any sketchy looking descenders: stop and let them get well ahead if necessary.
7. Make absolutely sure your bike is mechanically A1. I'd get new pads in particular and get the LBS to give everything a proper check over beforehand.

Good luck all!
Your power is awesome! And you still recommend easy gears, that's insane haha.

Why do you recommend tubeless (never tried it!)
Nah, I'm middle of the pack in a race!

I like tubeless for this to run lower pressures for greater grip and compliance while reducing the risk of pinch flats. The grip will help up the hills and down, and if/when you hit a pothole (because it's so hard to pick a line when you pick up speed so quickly) you're more likely to get away with it.

raggedtrousers
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:29 pm

by raggedtrousers

bobones wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 10:27 pm
raggedtrousers wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 7:37 pm
I've not done the Fred, but have ridden pretty extensively in the Lakes for over a decade and am familiar all the main climbs/descents. FWIW, I'm 40, just over 4w/kg FTP (290w@70kg). My tips:
1. Use a disc brake bike.
2. Run tubeless and 28c+ tyres.
3. Having a 1:1 low gear really helps with pacing, and if you have the option to run lower, do it (my TCR has AXS,48/35 at the front and I chuck on a 10-36 cassette for any trips to the Lakes).
4. However slow you think you need to start, start slower. Lots of riders will hare off: I promise you'll catch almost all of them later with a tortoise/hare approach. Terrain aside, this is a 7hr ride if you're quick: no one can hammer it for that length of time.
5. Fuel and drink extensively.
6. Stay focused after the climbs. After some of them, you're pretty f*cked, but you need to stay on task because the descents are seriously challenging and potentially dangerous. Also stay well clear of any sketchy looking descenders: stop and let them get well ahead if necessary.
7. Make absolutely sure your bike is mechanically A1. I'd get new pads in particular and get the LBS to give everything a proper check over beforehand.

Good luck all!
Great advice, thanks!

Do you have any tips for riding the steepest slopes? I am not used to those gradients but it seems you need to be out of the saddle before the hairpins to keep control of the front wheel and then drop a cog or two before standing up. I was totally hammering it on the first part of Hardknott just after the cattle grid and was almost exhausted by the time I could sit down and get some recovery. Is there a technique to riding these slower and with more control without falling off?
Lots of good advice from expatscot. Get in the lowest gear early. If traffic allows, weave slightly. Get comfortable at low cadence (60-65rpm). I can't stress enough to get low gears on the bike (if the pros run an 11-34 cassette on mountain stages, no amateur has any business running an 11-32 in the Fred, but anyway...). But it's more or less all in on these brief sections whatever you do: you have to treat them as breakaway efforts and use other sections as respite. Hence my advice to start slooooowwwww... :-)

sigma
Posts: 695
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:12 am

by sigma

raggedtrousers wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 11:28 pm
bobones wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 10:27 pm
raggedtrousers wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 7:37 pm
I've not done the Fred, but have ridden pretty extensively in the Lakes for over a decade and am familiar all the main climbs/descents. FWIW, I'm 40, just over 4w/kg FTP (290w@70kg). My tips:
1. Use a disc brake bike.
2. Run tubeless and 28c+ tyres.
3. Having a 1:1 low gear really helps with pacing, and if you have the option to run lower, do it (my TCR has AXS,48/35 at the front and I chuck on a 10-36 cassette for any trips to the Lakes).
4. However slow you think you need to start, start slower. Lots of riders will hare off: I promise you'll catch almost all of them later with a tortoise/hare approach. Terrain aside, this is a 7hr ride if you're quick: no one can hammer it for that length of time.
5. Fuel and drink extensively.
6. Stay focused after the climbs. After some of them, you're pretty f*cked, but you need to stay on task because the descents are seriously challenging and potentially dangerous. Also stay well clear of any sketchy looking descenders: stop and let them get well ahead if necessary.
7. Make absolutely sure your bike is mechanically A1. I'd get new pads in particular and get the LBS to give everything a proper check over beforehand.

Good luck all!
Great advice, thanks!

Do you have any tips for riding the steepest slopes? I am not used to those gradients but it seems you need to be out of the saddle before the hairpins to keep control of the front wheel and then drop a cog or two before standing up. I was totally hammering it on the first part of Hardknott just after the cattle grid and was almost exhausted by the time I could sit down and get some recovery. Is there a technique to riding these slower and with more control without falling off?
Lots of good advice from expatscot. Get in the lowest gear early. If traffic allows, weave slightly. Get comfortable at low cadence (60-65rpm). I can't stress enough to get low gears on the bike (if the pros run an 11-34 cassette on mountain stages, no amateur has any business running an 11-32 in the Fred, but anyway...). But it's more or less all in on these brief sections whatever you do: you have to treat them as breakaway efforts and use other sections as respite. Hence my advice to start slooooowwwww... :-)
I live in the Rocky Mountains (US) and always laugh at the "why would you need a 32?" comments. Because it's a damn long 9% grade and even at decent power / weight ratios, doing those kinds of climbs multiple times in a ride can be exhausting at 3000m. Start in the easiest gear to get the legs moving at the right cadence. Always easier to move to a harder gear if the effort feels easy than the other way around. When I do the Fred next year, I will be running 50/34 + 11-34 in the back!
Lots of bikes: currently riding Enve Melee, Krypton Pro, S Works Crux, S Works Epic Evo, SL7.
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raggedtrousers
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:29 pm

by raggedtrousers

sigma wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 8:19 pm
I live in the Rocky Mountains (US) and always laugh at the "why would you need a 32?" comments. Because it's a damn long 9% grade and even at decent power / weight ratios, doing those kinds of climbs multiple times in a ride can be exhausting at 3000m. Start in the easiest gear to get the legs moving at the right cadence. Always easier to move to a harder gear if the effort feels easy than the other way around. When I do the Fred next year, I will be running 50/34 + 11-34 in the back!
Exactly. Putting out >100% FTP at <70rpm time and again really takes it out of you; it is much more repeatable to spin an easier gear at a higher cadence. I also work on the basis that it's always better to have a bottom gear you don't use much than to want one you haven't got. Anyone who genuinely doesn't need a 1:1 for the Fred is probably north of 5w/kg, I'd guess, and those guys are different animals anyway (that's the cut off for 'proper quick' IMO, and at that level, it's a very different sport I think).

expatscot
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:20 pm
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

by expatscot

raggedtrousers wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 8:57 pm
sigma wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 8:19 pm
I live in the Rocky Mountains (US) and always laugh at the "why would you need a 32?" comments. Because it's a damn long 9% grade and even at decent power / weight ratios, doing those kinds of climbs multiple times in a ride can be exhausting at 3000m. Start in the easiest gear to get the legs moving at the right cadence. Always easier to move to a harder gear if the effort feels easy than the other way around. When I do the Fred next year, I will be running 50/34 + 11-34 in the back!
Exactly. Putting out >100% FTP at <70rpm time and again really takes it out of you; it is much more repeatable to spin an easier gear at a higher cadence. I also work on the basis that it's always better to have a bottom gear you don't use much than to want one you haven't got. Anyone who genuinely doesn't need a 1:1 for the Fred is probably north of 5w/kg, I'd guess, and those guys are different animals anyway (that's the cut off for 'proper quick' IMO, and at that level, it's a very different sport I think).
Thankfully we are a long way from the old machismo of 39/53 and 11/21 that were the bedrock of my road experience in the '90s.
DuraAce 12s has a 1:1 option, which I intend to use when I eventually upgrade. There's not a lot between the 11-32 and 11-34 cassette, but will be noticeably better than my current fleet of 11-28 bikes. (Sram eTap 11s limitations. I don't have wifli).

You #can# still ride these events with higher gears. Cadence will be slower, with more weaving and unseated hauling on the bars. Not pretty, and for longer events/ ascents I'm sure that the lower gear would be more comfortable. I've no idea about w/kg.
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bobones
Posts: 1271
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

I'll have a low gear of 0.92 (48/33 + 10-36) but I need to be careful about moving to a standing position as it's easy to lose all forward momentum and topple so I think I need to move to the second largest cog (32) before standing and then shift down to the 36 once I have good momentum.

My biggest problem on Hardknott is bike handling and lack of skill/experience on these gradients. I have a tendancy be seated when I need to be out of the saddle before my front wheel starts to lift and I lose control of the bike and put my foot down, or else I am out of the saddle hammering a smaller cog than I need to.

I want to try to get up that first hard section without totally overreaching, and that means going slower. I did the "Hard" segment on Strava (cattle grid to fort?) in a time that compares with some of the properly fast cyclists I know, and I although I was fresh, it tells me I was going way too quick as I am generally not in their league! I want to do it at 3.5 mph instead of 5, so I am probably going to have another practice run when I drive down on Saturday, this time getting in the 36 cog out of the saddle and trying to keep the watts nearer 300 than 400 and the HR below 180.

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Miller
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Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:54 pm
Location: Reading, UK

by Miller

Well, this was today. Wonder how forumites did?

A friend, not in the first flush of youth, got round in 8hr27 elapsed, I see from Strava. That's for 188km and a stonking 3900m of climb. Weather was probably very good. I'm in S of England and did a sportive today in what turned out to be full summer weather. My cyclist tan is under way.
Last edited by Miller on Sun May 08, 2022 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by MrCurrieinahurry

Mayflyer?

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expatscot
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:20 pm
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

by expatscot

I got round in 8h 30 elapsed / 8h ride time.
Excellent weather (albeit the headwind felt quite strong for a lot of the latter sections).
My tan is coming along nicely.
I had one "dab" about 25m from summit of Hardknott (not the steep section, ironically) when I was boxed in.
The hardest bits were the descents off Hardknott and Wrynose. My WW rotors overheated.
It would have been much easier if I'd found a decent group, but I set off too late to find some at my level.
I didn't really enjoy the section after Whinlatter to the main feed station - headwind, lumpy, lonely, slow, tired.
There were a couple of accidents: someone flat out on a stretcher at the nasty bridge on Honister, and someone who hit a bus part way down off Whinlatter. Both looked pretty serious. Hope they are OK.
Look 695 aerolight eTap 11
Boardman TTE eTap 11
Brompton S2 LX ti custom
Trek 5500 1994 Sram Red 10
Boardman CXR9.8 eTap 11
Open UPPER - DA 9270
Ridley x-fire Sram Red 10

and lots of non- WW others.

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bobones
Posts: 1271
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

7.45 elapsed / 7.21 moving for me. Pretty happy with that as an old guy close to 60. My only regret is that I bottled out at the 30% section of Hardknott and put my foot down before it started because I was spooked about falling off due to toe overlap on the bends. Other than that, I got up all the climbs and the 36 tooth cog was a godsend. I could have done with a bit more company as I was alone from Whinlatter to the foot of Hardkott, but I felt strong to the end, although I never really pushed myself with the prospect of the 3 climbs looming, and I was perhaps over cautious on the dangerous descents.

The bike was great: I was really comfortable on the crappy surfaces with the 30 mm Pirellis at 50 PSI, and the EE brakes were superb with great stopping power and control. I wasn't so comfortable at the Lakeland Loop a couple of weeks ago when I had been braking from the hoods, but it was much easier from the drops after I brought the lever reach in a tad.

Anyway, it was a great day with tremendous support from the locals and a fantastically well organised event.

112 miles and 11,745 ft to go
Image
Kirkstone Descent
Image
Chaos on Honister with dropped motorbike
Image
Start of dangerous Honister descent. Guy is on stretcher just around the corner from here
Image
Sweeping descent from Newlands
Image
Support from locals
Image
The gates of hell - Hardknott start
Image
Start of 30% section
Image
Looking down on the tormented
Image
Even walking is hard
Image
Just one more climb
Image
Blea Tarn descent
Image
Made it!
Image

Support at start of Whinlatter

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