Rumors Next Generation Campagnolo Road?

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MarkMcM
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:24 pm

by MarkMcM

graeme_f_k wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:51 am
Lower efficiency and faster wear pre-supposes no change in materials or design. We've been here a zillion times before, I am old and grey enough to remember the nay-sayers on Ultra 7 vs Standard width 7s blocks and chains. And, for that matter, 12T vs 13t, then 11T vs 12T ...
Lower efficiency of smaller sprockets is well known, regardless of material (if only due to increased vibration from chordal action). As you say, wear rate depends on material and design - but to say that these sprockets won't wear any faster is to pre-suppose that the same material and designs can't be applied to larger sprockets and chainrings. All things being equal, smaller sprockets and chainrings do wear faster.

However, I am absolutely certain that at least the chain will wear faster with these smaller sprocket and chainrings, since the same chain can be used with the originally sized 12spd sprockets and chainrings.

One might be able to argue that any drop in efficiency or increase in wear is insignificant. But to argue that they don't exist is ingenuous.

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GaBa
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:01 pm

by GaBa

Saw new BMC TM in other thread (new frame rumors 2023) and Ag2r seems to be using SRW with P2M or SRM crank powermeter? Chainrings also seem quite big and nowhere near compact?

MarkMcM
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:24 pm

by MarkMcM

GaBa wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:08 pm
Saw new BMC TM in other thread (new frame rumors 2023) and Ag2r seems to be using SRW with P2M or SRM crank powermeter? Chainrings also seem quite big and nowhere near compact?
That's what the SRAM equiped teams have been doing also. Although SRAM Red AXS is is sold with 46/33, 48/35 or 50/37 chainrings as standard, the Red AXS power meter kit comes with larger chainrings - 52/39, 54/41 or 56/43. The pro teams have primarily been using the powe meter kit with the larger chainrings. I would not be surprised (and would actually expect) that the Campagnolo equiped racing teams would also use larger chainrings.

The suspected reason that the pro racers are using larger than chainrings is to reduce power losses. How much losses are there? Ceramic speed tested the losses of two different drivetrains, one with a 53 tooth large chainring, and one with a 48 tooth, and the results were published in Velonews. The test was originally intended to compare a 1x drivetrain with a 2x drivetrain, but the 1x chainring was aligned to the same cassette sprocket as the large chainring on the 2x drivetrain, so the results are equivalent to comparing the losses in the large ring between a standard size and sub-compact drivetrain. Much has been made of the extra losses in the 10t sprocket, and in this test the 53/11 had about 13 W losses, while the 48/10 had about 19 W losses. This respresents 5.2% total losses for the 53/11 vs. 7.6% total losses for the 250 W test load. But riders don't spend much time in the smallest chainring, so what about sprockets in the middle of the cassette? Here the differences between the two systems were smaller, but in combinations right in the middle of the cassette with the same gear ratios, there were about 2 W more losses with the 48t than with the 53t.

https://velo.outsideonline.com/gear/gea ... ivetrains/

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fogman
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:36 pm

by fogman

If you wanted to do a “mini upgrade” from Super Record EPS 12 to Wireless, can you just buy the shifters and derailleurs, and keep your current crank set, chainrings, cassette, and brakes? In other words, is the rear derailleur backwards compatible with 11-32 sprockets?


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AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Officially no. Unofficially, nobody has tried yet or posted about it.
Last edited by AJS914 on Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

hkatrib
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:16 pm

by hkatrib

graeme_f_k wrote:
hkatrib wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:18 am
Does anyone know if the new C-link backward compatible with the EPS SR 12 speed chain?
Would really appreciate some insight from Campy Tech experts!


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Yes, it is. The chain itself has not changed.
The quick link chain gets a different product code to identfy between the 114 link chain provided with a pin and the 113 link chain provided with the C-link:

Sales Cod. CN19-SR1214
Ind. Cod. 0113301
SUPER RECORD 12s chain - 114 links

vs

Sales Cod. CN23-SR12ML
Ind. Cod. 0113304
SR 12s C-Link chain 113 links+connecting link

The C-link itself is made in-house and so retains the accuracy of the pin-to-pin dimension, width tolerance etc. required, which could not be guaranteed from third party makers.
Much appreciated and Thanks for the detailed answer!

One last clarification, is it reusable?


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simbikotic
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:52 am

by simbikotic

It seems that there are some people on this forum with some inside knowledge of the development process at Campy (e.g. @graeme_f_k - thanks for sharing your knowledge btw). For them, I have a burning question: I am super curious about the 12s Vs 13s descision. 13s must have been on-the-table during SRW development, but ultimately they decided to go 12s. Why?

Not to imply that one choice is right/wrong - I just want to understand the tradeoffs. I ride Ekar 13s and the only (minor) complaint I have is that I spend more time doing cable adjustment than on 12s. However, with electronic this problem should go away?

Side note: The presence of industry folk with a bit of inside knowledge to share is a big reason why WW is an awsome place to hangout.

ParisCarbon
Posts: 1918
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:39 am
Location: Winnipeg Canada

by ParisCarbon

Phew... all is not lost... P2Max 53/39 with WRL
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/protot ... -dauphine/

Bobbyc123
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:40 am

by Bobbyc123

I find it so strange that the new groupset has launched in the wild and you see the pros using it on tv but they don't have a suitable chainset ready for it.

rudye9mr
Posts: 498
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 12:01 pm

by rudye9mr

WRL is a potential easier buy in parts...less confusing than EPS and all the cables, interfaces and battery mounts.

https://www.racycles.com/searchresults/ ... &pagenum=1

FD: 770
RD: 900
Shifters:1400


3070? IF current 12s chainset and 12s cassette can work

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chorus88
Posts: 365
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:58 pm
Location: Toronto

by chorus88

GaBa wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:08 pm
Saw new BMC TM in other thread (new frame rumors 2023) and Ag2r seems to be using SRW with P2M or SRM crank powermeter? Chainrings also seem quite big and nowhere near compact?
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/protot ... -dauphine/

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ParisCarbon
Posts: 1918
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:39 am
Location: Winnipeg Canada

by ParisCarbon

Bobbyc123 wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:05 pm
I find it so strange that the new groupset has launched in the wild and you see the pros using it on tv but they don't have a suitable chainset ready for it.
No powermeter though for it yet... essentially left the team with no choice... but its good to see the standard SRM/P2Max is on there.... dunno how much Ill use a 53X10 cog on the flat... thats some wicked into the wind hill climb sim gear :P

MarkMcM
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:24 pm

by MarkMcM

ParisCarbon wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:52 pm
Bobbyc123 wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:05 pm
I find it so strange that the new groupset has launched in the wild and you see the pros using it on tv but they don't have a suitable chainset ready for it.
No powermeter though for it yet... essentially left the team with no choice... but its good to see the standard SRM/P2Max is on there.... dunno how much Ill use a 53X10 cog on the flat... thats some wicked into the wind hill climb sim gear :P
That still doesn't explain the larger chainrings/cassette. One of the SR WRL chainring options is 50/34, and there were already 50/34 chainrings that fit that same power meter.

ghisallo2003
Posts: 742
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:10 pm

by ghisallo2003

rudye9mr wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:19 pm
WRL is a potential easier buy in parts...less confusing than EPS and all the cables, interfaces and battery mounts.

https://www.racycles.com/searchresults/ ... &pagenum=1

FD: 770
RD: 900
Shifters:1400


3070? IF current 12s chainset and 12s cassette can work
Powermeter listed on RA Cycles as on its way ! I admit to not reading the full thread but is this rumour now confirmed: integrated Campagnolo powermeter?

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usr
Posts: 888
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

simbikotic wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:56 pm
It seems that there are some people on this forum with some inside knowledge of the development process at Campy (e.g. @graeme_f_k - thanks for sharing your knowledge btw). For them, I have a burning question: I am super curious about the 12s Vs 13s descision. 13s must have been on-the-table during SRW development, but ultimately they decided to go 12s. Why?

Not to imply that one choice is right/wrong - I just want to understand the tradeoffs. I ride Ekar 13s and the only (minor) complaint I have is that I spend more time doing cable adjustment than on 12s. However, with electronic this problem should go away?
As far as I know (I'm just reiterating something read here) the Ekar big cog is so far left that it would not have enough spoke clearance with anything smaller than 36. And the small cog is far enough right to cause a potential clearance problem with the frame if it was the size you'd want in a "very big rings" setup matching the huge left cog for stronger riders.

If this is true (I'm not sure, but it sounds plausible to my ears) then the Ekar chain geometry would be more like a "12.5 speed" that happens to be able to do 13 in a wide range 1x setup, but not a universal 13 speed that would be capable of serving e.g. a super narrow 12-25 corncob.

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