Decades ago, Shimano already had a ceramic bushing on the upper pulley of some RDs.rollinslow wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 5:36 pmI saw that...no seramoc bearing but instead bike radar reports use of bushings rather than bearings? Is that true???!
Rumors Next Generation Campagnolo Road?
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rollinslow
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Was just pricing out dura ace and yeah over 2 grand without must have features is not so great. Guess it's going to be sticking with Campy SR12 mech groups on my other bikes beucase they have been awesome.
Moots Vamoots RSL (2019)-Super Record 12
Cervelo S1 (2010)-Super Record 12
Kestrel RT700 (2008)-Dura Ace 9000
Mosaic GT-1 (2020)-SRAM Red viewtopic.php?f=10&t=174523
Cervelo S1 (2010)-Super Record 12
Kestrel RT700 (2008)-Dura Ace 9000
Mosaic GT-1 (2020)-SRAM Red viewtopic.php?f=10&t=174523
Let's be serious, what's really beneficial about wireless? it takes 5-10 mi. more into riding a bike? saying that..."that's cool" my bike doesn't have cables (they can hardly be seen)
see some huge derailleurs?
the most bleeding... wireless group but 2 different batteries? really george? If it is due to patent problems (which I do not understand)
It would not have been smarter on the part of Campgnolo......
you renew the group making the improvements with respect to EPS with an internal battery and more accomplished cabling and you leave wireless communication like Shimano and FSA WE..... you have a less bulky group and maybe even something lighter.....going wireless for marketing without doing something more attractive, I don't see it as logical...
There’s angle control in Di2, albeit rudimentary (potentiometer). Campag uses an absolute encoder.ivonenand wrote:Nope, not stepper motors. Shimano uses a classic brushed motor and then a plastic gearbox to achieve the required torque. I don't event think they have an absolute angle sensor in there; my guess is that they only count the revolutions on the motor (or perhaps one of the cogs in the gearbox) to establish the position.
Ivo
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I am in the market for a new groupset and was wating for this before making a decision, and my decision has been made easier by Campagnolo. I rode Campagnolo through 8, 9, 10 and 11 speed including early generations of EPS but finally looked elsewhere a few years ago when Campagnolo were left behind. I have a real desire to own Campagnolo again, but this just doesn't do it for me. I had kept the faith based on Graeme's dismissal of the early leaks as 'nothing is final until it is final', but in the end all of the leaks and patent imagery were unfortunately pretty close to the finished product.
Having been an innovator for so long, Campagnolo have suffered from being a not-so-fast-follower in so much as they have had to make some poor choices to evade patent infringement from brands who have already got their towel on the deck chair first. I simply don't know why you would choose this over SRAM or Shimano's top tier groupsets. It doesn't offer anything different, let alone better. I am genuinely disappointed for Campagnolo if this is the best they have to offer after all this time.
In terms of scoring, to me:
Different batteries front and rear is a significant step backwards vs SRAM. The ability to swap in an emergency is very useful. Even the battery clip looks over engineered with its mutiple moving parts. Win for SRAM (I have excluded Shimano since they aren't truly wireless).
SRAM - 1 Campagnolo - 0 Shimano - 0
The shift lever set up looks (and from the reviews feels) difficult to differentiate even with bare hands, so full finger gloves look like a no-no. Both of the other players are easier, with SRAM being significantly so in terms of simplicity. Even Campagnolo themselves admit that the thumb shifter divided opinion, but given that it was a 50/50, why not hold onto it as a point of difference and annoy the 50% who didn't like it (and had a choice to buy something else anyway) rather than the 50% that did (who now have lost another reason to stick with Campagnolo). The mechanics of the shifters also seem incredibly complicated with lots of Swiss watch type moving parts given that they are just levers.
SRAM - 2 Campagnolo - 0 Shimano - 1
The front mech is evidently slow and incredibly bulky. Shimano win out here on speed and size.
SRAM - 2 Campagnolo - 0 Shimano - 2
The rear mech is also quite bulky and judging from the reviews the shifting is noisy and agricultural even on the test bikes set up by Campagnolo themselves. Again, a win for Shimano.
SRAM - 2 Campagnolo - 0 Shimano - 3
Lack of a power meter when both of the others offer one.
SRAM - 3 Campagnolo - 0 Shimano - 4
The cassette is nothing special. Shimano's shifting is slicker and SRAM win for engineering and longevity.
SRAM - 4 Campagnolo - 0 Shimano - 5
Campagnolo's chainsets do look nice in non-power meter form and the engineering makes a lot of sense, albeit the lack of Cult bearings is a small miss. I never really felt the benefit of Cult vs steel bearings, but if Campagnolo genuinely consder them to be a benefit then they should fit them to the flagship product surely? Shimano are nothing special in this department and have had some warranty issues. I'll give this one to Campagnolo.
SRAM - 4 Campagnolo - 1 Shimano - 5
Availability and support will always be better with SRAM and Shimano. Campagnolo have really lost a foothold in the market when it comes to support on your doorstep. Here in the UK Graeme does an amazing job, but there are very few Campagnolo Pro Shops and in reality the traditional repairability of Campagnolo doesn't translate these days with spares pricing and availability meaning that Campagnolo is almost as disposable in the event of failure of damage as SRAM and Shimano.
SRAM - 5 Campagnolo - 1 Shimano - 6
Braking is well modulated with Campagnolo and if my Ekar is anything to go by (and since the calipers are just repurposed and refinished versions of the previous caliper) braking will be the best of the bunch in terms of feel and modulation if not outright power.
SRAM - 5 Campagnolo - 2 Shimano - 6
Objectively and subjectively the price of Super Record is very difficult to justify vs SRAM and Shimano.
SRAM - 6 Campagnolo - 2 Shimano - 7
Lack of remote blips when both of the rivals offer them.
SRAM - 7 Campagnolo - 2 Shimano - 8
The gear ratios are by Campagnolo's admission (albeit slightly) less efficient. As a brand and a groupset defined by racing, they have been outdone by Dura Ace in terms of pro racing ratios and efficiency. SRAM also lose on this measure to be fair.
SRAM - 7 Campagnolo - 2 Shimano - 9
I won't score aesthetics as they are quite subjective, but to me Campagnolo have lost some of their traditional advantage when it comes to the looks. The shifters and mechs have the look of FSA WE about them. Bizarely the packaging it comes in looks more premium than the product itself. The silver and gold logos also translate onto the new wheels and look great, and would have offered some much needed lift to the monochrome carbon and Tron font that they have gone for. Looks like a 1980's version of 'the future' and they have so much heritage in design to fall back on. Bring back the winged wheel logo and a bit of bling! For $5k I expect it to look really special. Simply making everythng out of pressure molded carbon isn't enough.
Other than braking (which is all about feel), I can't think of many areas where Campagnolo wins the race, and at a significant price premium and a more involved ownership experience that simply isn't good enough.
Shimano for the win with SRAM only just missing out and Campagnolo trailing a long way behind. It just makes more sense, and even voting with the heart Campagnolo fails to set the pulse racing nowadays.
And after all this time it feels a little unfinished. Power meter? In development. Blips? In development. Different ratios? In development. Lower Tiers? In development. Better pricing and improved looks? Oh well, we can but dream!
I know that Graeme will be along soon to explain some of the incredible thought and technology that has gone into this launch, but I am very sorry to say that for me this really misses the mark. Other than wireless (which really only provides an advantage during building the bike on particularly circuitous routing on internal frames) there isn't much discernible advantage over the previous incarnation or its rivals.
You really have to want their product these days because they don't make it easy in terms of price, performance and aesthetics.
Having been an innovator for so long, Campagnolo have suffered from being a not-so-fast-follower in so much as they have had to make some poor choices to evade patent infringement from brands who have already got their towel on the deck chair first. I simply don't know why you would choose this over SRAM or Shimano's top tier groupsets. It doesn't offer anything different, let alone better. I am genuinely disappointed for Campagnolo if this is the best they have to offer after all this time.
In terms of scoring, to me:
Different batteries front and rear is a significant step backwards vs SRAM. The ability to swap in an emergency is very useful. Even the battery clip looks over engineered with its mutiple moving parts. Win for SRAM (I have excluded Shimano since they aren't truly wireless).
SRAM - 1 Campagnolo - 0 Shimano - 0
The shift lever set up looks (and from the reviews feels) difficult to differentiate even with bare hands, so full finger gloves look like a no-no. Both of the other players are easier, with SRAM being significantly so in terms of simplicity. Even Campagnolo themselves admit that the thumb shifter divided opinion, but given that it was a 50/50, why not hold onto it as a point of difference and annoy the 50% who didn't like it (and had a choice to buy something else anyway) rather than the 50% that did (who now have lost another reason to stick with Campagnolo). The mechanics of the shifters also seem incredibly complicated with lots of Swiss watch type moving parts given that they are just levers.
SRAM - 2 Campagnolo - 0 Shimano - 1
The front mech is evidently slow and incredibly bulky. Shimano win out here on speed and size.
SRAM - 2 Campagnolo - 0 Shimano - 2
The rear mech is also quite bulky and judging from the reviews the shifting is noisy and agricultural even on the test bikes set up by Campagnolo themselves. Again, a win for Shimano.
SRAM - 2 Campagnolo - 0 Shimano - 3
Lack of a power meter when both of the others offer one.
SRAM - 3 Campagnolo - 0 Shimano - 4
The cassette is nothing special. Shimano's shifting is slicker and SRAM win for engineering and longevity.
SRAM - 4 Campagnolo - 0 Shimano - 5
Campagnolo's chainsets do look nice in non-power meter form and the engineering makes a lot of sense, albeit the lack of Cult bearings is a small miss. I never really felt the benefit of Cult vs steel bearings, but if Campagnolo genuinely consder them to be a benefit then they should fit them to the flagship product surely? Shimano are nothing special in this department and have had some warranty issues. I'll give this one to Campagnolo.
SRAM - 4 Campagnolo - 1 Shimano - 5
Availability and support will always be better with SRAM and Shimano. Campagnolo have really lost a foothold in the market when it comes to support on your doorstep. Here in the UK Graeme does an amazing job, but there are very few Campagnolo Pro Shops and in reality the traditional repairability of Campagnolo doesn't translate these days with spares pricing and availability meaning that Campagnolo is almost as disposable in the event of failure of damage as SRAM and Shimano.
SRAM - 5 Campagnolo - 1 Shimano - 6
Braking is well modulated with Campagnolo and if my Ekar is anything to go by (and since the calipers are just repurposed and refinished versions of the previous caliper) braking will be the best of the bunch in terms of feel and modulation if not outright power.
SRAM - 5 Campagnolo - 2 Shimano - 6
Objectively and subjectively the price of Super Record is very difficult to justify vs SRAM and Shimano.
SRAM - 6 Campagnolo - 2 Shimano - 7
Lack of remote blips when both of the rivals offer them.
SRAM - 7 Campagnolo - 2 Shimano - 8
The gear ratios are by Campagnolo's admission (albeit slightly) less efficient. As a brand and a groupset defined by racing, they have been outdone by Dura Ace in terms of pro racing ratios and efficiency. SRAM also lose on this measure to be fair.
SRAM - 7 Campagnolo - 2 Shimano - 9
I won't score aesthetics as they are quite subjective, but to me Campagnolo have lost some of their traditional advantage when it comes to the looks. The shifters and mechs have the look of FSA WE about them. Bizarely the packaging it comes in looks more premium than the product itself. The silver and gold logos also translate onto the new wheels and look great, and would have offered some much needed lift to the monochrome carbon and Tron font that they have gone for. Looks like a 1980's version of 'the future' and they have so much heritage in design to fall back on. Bring back the winged wheel logo and a bit of bling! For $5k I expect it to look really special. Simply making everythng out of pressure molded carbon isn't enough.
Other than braking (which is all about feel), I can't think of many areas where Campagnolo wins the race, and at a significant price premium and a more involved ownership experience that simply isn't good enough.
Shimano for the win with SRAM only just missing out and Campagnolo trailing a long way behind. It just makes more sense, and even voting with the heart Campagnolo fails to set the pulse racing nowadays.
And after all this time it feels a little unfinished. Power meter? In development. Blips? In development. Different ratios? In development. Lower Tiers? In development. Better pricing and improved looks? Oh well, we can but dream!
I know that Graeme will be along soon to explain some of the incredible thought and technology that has gone into this launch, but I am very sorry to say that for me this really misses the mark. Other than wireless (which really only provides an advantage during building the bike on particularly circuitous routing on internal frames) there isn't much discernible advantage over the previous incarnation or its rivals.
You really have to want their product these days because they don't make it easy in terms of price, performance and aesthetics.
Last edited by solarider on Tue May 30, 2023 11:09 pm, edited 20 times in total.
I am most curious about what pro's will race gearing wise - I feel like AG2R is going to ride EPS till the end of the year and next year be on shimano? Special chainrings? Or old generation cranks?
I guess I'm an old-school gear masher/racer - the current wireless gearing is not going to work for me
I guess I'm an old-school gear masher/racer - the current wireless gearing is not going to work for me
Yes it is better for this application.Ritxis wrote:
Do you seriously think that USB or CULT is better than a good quality steel bearing???? more expensive for sure...
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Ceramic bushings have been around for ages. They’re nasty cheap too.Ritxis wrote:Decades ago, Shimano already had a ceramic bushing on the upper pulley of some RDs.rollinslow wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 5:36 pmI saw that...no seramoc bearing but instead bike radar reports use of bushings rather than bearings? Is that true???!
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TobinHatesYou
- Posts: 12544
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm
Clever, by adding external charging contacts to the derailleur batteries and making each one unique, Campy can likely claim they are permanently attached, skirting SRAM”s removable battery patent.
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StiffWeenies
- Posts: 616
- Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:39 pm
Are there PM pod cutouts on both sides? seems to only be on NDS
Are the chainrings now 123/96 BCD like Chorus? no CULT at SR level just reeks of cost cutting
Are the existing 12s chain/cassettes compatible? surely they'll come out with a 10-32T cassette too for 1:1 with 48/32?
Nice to finally see an official quick link, no more KMC workaround with the existing chain
Seperate front and rear batteries is a pain that Wheel Top had to design around too
Overall design just fails to communicate any sort of luxury or exclusivity, Campy really have nothing else to fall back on now that they've tossed away the 'heritage' card
EDIT: Cassette seems to be all steel now, no more Ti sprockets. That on/off brifter function also makes me suspect that the power draw and sleep/awake algorithms need serious work.
Are the chainrings now 123/96 BCD like Chorus? no CULT at SR level just reeks of cost cutting
Are the existing 12s chain/cassettes compatible? surely they'll come out with a 10-32T cassette too for 1:1 with 48/32?
Nice to finally see an official quick link, no more KMC workaround with the existing chain
Seperate front and rear batteries is a pain that Wheel Top had to design around too
Overall design just fails to communicate any sort of luxury or exclusivity, Campy really have nothing else to fall back on now that they've tossed away the 'heritage' card
EDIT: Cassette seems to be all steel now, no more Ti sprockets. That on/off brifter function also makes me suspect that the power draw and sleep/awake algorithms need serious work.
Last edited by StiffWeenies on Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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TobinHatesYou
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StiffWeenies wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 9:38 pm
Are the existing 12s chain/cassettes compatible? surely they'll come out with a 10-32T cassette too for 1:1 with 48/32?
I suspect the RD geometry officially only supports up to a 29t cog or 35t chain wrap. Maybe eventually a different version of the RD with a long b-knuckle will come out a la SRAM’s max 36t RD.
E: Actually since there’s an additional knuckle for DM compatibility, Campy of Wolftooth could just create a longer knuckle without having to replace the entire RD.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Wed May 31, 2023 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MrCurrieinahurry
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- Location: London
From escape collective pageStiffWeenies wrote:Are there PM pod cutouts on both sides? seems to only be on NDS
Are the chainrings now 123/96 BCD like Chorus? no CULT at SR level just reeks of cost cutting
Are the existing 12s chain/cassettes compatible? surely they'll come out with a 10-32T cassette too for 1:1 with 48/32?
Nice to finally see an official quick link, no more KMC workaround with the existing chain
Seperate front and rear batteries is a pain that Wheel Top had to design around too
Overall design just fails to communicate any sort of luxury or exclusivity, Campy really have nothing else to fall back on now that they've tossed away the 'heritage' card
One thing Campag hasn’t changed yet, is the inclusion of a power meter. Campagnolo admitted they are working on a power meter, and both the new drive and non-drive side cranks include a filled-in area that may prove to be an opening for a power pod when that power meter offering does come. The good news is, judging by those pods on each crank, Campagnolo is working on a true dual-sided power meter. The bad news is, it obviously is not included in that already huge price tag.
Basso Diamante eps 12
Formerly known as Curryinahurry
Perhaps there are some advantages too.Ritxis wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 9:13 pmLet's be serious, what's really beneficial about wireless? it takes 5-10 mi. more into riding a bike? saying that..."that's cool" my bike doesn't have cables (they can hardly be seen)
see some huge derailleurs?
the most bleeding... wireless group but 2 different batteries? really george? If it is due to patent problems (which I do not understand)
It would not have been smarter on the part of Campgnolo......
you renew the group making the improvements with respect to EPS with an internal battery and more accomplished cabling and you leave wireless communication like Shimano and FSA WE..... you have a less bulky group and maybe even something lighter.....going wireless for marketing without doing something more attractive, I don't see it as logical...
No cable rattling, no battery in the seatpost, maintenance, charging, compatibility...
Theoretically a wireless groupset is compatible with all frameset.
I mean with a C40 colnago too.
So for me the huge mistake is:
There is no rim brake compatible lever or hydraulic rim brake option.
Marco Pantani - Momenti Di Gloria
AX Vial (SR11) <- FELT FC (Record 10) <- LOOK KX (Dura-Ace) <- Specialized EPIC (Superbe Pro)
AX Vial (SR11) <- FELT FC (Record 10) <- LOOK KX (Dura-Ace) <- Specialized EPIC (Superbe Pro)
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