Rumors Next Generation Campagnolo Road?

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inertianinja
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:14 pm

by inertianinja

dgasmd wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 3:06 pm
Forgive me for the questions that I am sure have been discussed in the last 112 pages, but I came late to the thread. Have been out of cycling for a couple of years. 1. Is the wireless grouppo just for 12 sp or is there a version for 11 sp too? 2. Can the 11 sp cranks be used for the 12 sp wireless? I know they are the same for 11 sp and 12 sp mechanical at least. 3. Is this new wireless just for disc brakes or can they be used with mechanical/standard brakes? I have no use for disc and will not ditch >$10K in wheels and swap 3 frames just to use disc. Pointless to me personally. Thanks in advance.
After reading a bunch of reviews and Campy's own marketing, I came here to ask the same question. Not clear on what their differentiator is. And, I wonder how a $5,300 groupset fares when there are rumblings of super-cheap options coming out of China that will move the chain from one gear to another gear for like a tenth of the price.

by Weenie


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jlok
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by jlok

I don't think Made in Europe (and which part?) as a selling point is better than Dura-Ace Made in Japan? Aren't Japan and Taiwan the best in electronics?
Rikulau V9 DB Custom < BMC TM02 < Litespeed T1sl Disc < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

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dgasmd
Posts: 1953
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Location: South Florida

by dgasmd

inertianinja wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:06 pm
dgasmd wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 3:06 pm
Forgive me for the questions that I am sure have been discussed in the last 112 pages, but I came late to the thread. Have been out of cycling for a couple of years. 1. Is the wireless grouppo just for 12 sp or is there a version for 11 sp too? 2. Can the 11 sp cranks be used for the 12 sp wireless? I know they are the same for 11 sp and 12 sp mechanical at least. 3. Is this new wireless just for disc brakes or can they be used with mechanical/standard brakes? I have no use for disc and will not ditch >$10K in wheels and swap 3 frames just to use disc. Pointless to me personally. Thanks in advance.
After reading a bunch of reviews and Campy's own marketing, I came here to ask the same question. Not clear on what their differentiator is. And, I wonder how a $5,300 groupset fares when there are rumblings of super-cheap options coming out of China that will move the chain from one gear to another gear for like a tenth of the price.
Well, to be fair, Campy has always had its niche and has never been a leader in discounts and/or price. I do think that they'll have a harder time justifying their prices compared to the past. They are repairable and all parts availabel, but who the heck fixes anything anymore? Musch harder to justify the initial higher price for something that lasts forever when forever is only 9-16 months until the next new model of the next new cheaper and prittier thing comes out.

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guyc
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by guyc

It's a similar problem that a lot of the older supercar marques are facing - when your Ferrari doesn't have that screaming V8 or V12, where's the point of difference when everything is EV....

raggedtrousers
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Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:29 pm

by raggedtrousers

inertianinja wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:06 pm

After reading a bunch of reviews and Campy's own marketing, I came here to ask the same question. Not clear on what their differentiator is. And, I wonder how a $5,300 groupset fares when there are rumblings of super-cheap options coming out of China that will move the chain from one gear to another gear for like a tenth of the price.
I won't be buying this - it's well out of my budget - but I'm not really sure that's a fair question. The differentiator is it's absolutely top tier, has huge prestige, and brand heritage.

In illustration, I could go out tomorrow and buy a new car that would transport me and my family anywhere, reliably, economically, in more than adequate comfort and with performance that would allow me easily to exceed any national speed limits, for a small fraction of the cost of a Bentley, Panamera, etc. The measurable diffentiators don't really exist. But that's absolutely not the point, and the fact that you see lots of such cars (even a mid-range BMW or Lexus arguably falls into that category) illustrates it well.

Perhaps a better analogy would be a Suzuki vs a Ducati, or a Seiko vs a Rolex. It is very hard to argue that the latter brands produce something objectively better than the former in terms of their key function.

To be clear, I'm not saying it's right that SR should cost £4.5k, more that it operates in a world where the buyer isn't thinking about price first. That kind of buyer is not me, but they do exist.

Whether enough of them exist to support Campagnolo and where they appear to be heading is a different question.

EDIT: the poster who made the point about Ferrari touches on an interesting idea, and to me that hints at why this strategy might not be a success.

inertianinja
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:14 pm

by inertianinja

dgasmd wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:16 pm
inertianinja wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:06 pm
dgasmd wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 3:06 pm
Forgive me for the questions that I am sure have been discussed in the last 112 pages, but I came late to the thread. Have been out of cycling for a couple of years. 1. Is the wireless grouppo just for 12 sp or is there a version for 11 sp too? 2. Can the 11 sp cranks be used for the 12 sp wireless? I know they are the same for 11 sp and 12 sp mechanical at least. 3. Is this new wireless just for disc brakes or can they be used with mechanical/standard brakes? I have no use for disc and will not ditch >$10K in wheels and swap 3 frames just to use disc. Pointless to me personally. Thanks in advance.
After reading a bunch of reviews and Campy's own marketing, I came here to ask the same question. Not clear on what their differentiator is. And, I wonder how a $5,300 groupset fares when there are rumblings of super-cheap options coming out of China that will move the chain from one gear to another gear for like a tenth of the price.
Well, to be fair, Campy has always had its niche and has never been a leader in discounts and/or price. I do think that they'll have a harder time justifying their prices compared to the past. They are repairable and all parts availabel, but who the heck fixes anything anymore? Musch harder to justify the initial higher price for something that lasts forever when forever is only 9-16 months until the next new model of the next new cheaper and prittier thing comes out.
I've heard commentary that it's much easier to design a mechanism around electronic servo motors than it is to design a cable actuated system.

So perhaps it becomes like other types of electronics where the functionality is commoditized and, although you can still find expensive artisanal stuff, most people can't tell the difference.

0x47af7d8f4dd51267
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:24 pm

by 0x47af7d8f4dd51267

inertianinja wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:23 pm
dgasmd wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:16 pm
inertianinja wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:06 pm
dgasmd wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 3:06 pm
Forgive me for the questions that I am sure have been discussed in the last 112 pages, but I came late to the thread. Have been out of cycling for a couple of years. 1. Is the wireless grouppo just for 12 sp or is there a version for 11 sp too? 2. Can the 11 sp cranks be used for the 12 sp wireless? I know they are the same for 11 sp and 12 sp mechanical at least. 3. Is this new wireless just for disc brakes or can they be used with mechanical/standard brakes? I have no use for disc and will not ditch >$10K in wheels and swap 3 frames just to use disc. Pointless to me personally. Thanks in advance.
After reading a bunch of reviews and Campy's own marketing, I came here to ask the same question. Not clear on what their differentiator is. And, I wonder how a $5,300 groupset fares when there are rumblings of super-cheap options coming out of China that will move the chain from one gear to another gear for like a tenth of the price.
Well, to be fair, Campy has always had its niche and has never been a leader in discounts and/or price. I do think that they'll have a harder time justifying their prices compared to the past. They are repairable and all parts availabel, but who the heck fixes anything anymore? Musch harder to justify the initial higher price for something that lasts forever when forever is only 9-16 months until the next new model of the next new cheaper and prittier thing comes out.
I've heard commentary that it's much easier to design a mechanism around electronic servo motors than it is to design a cable actuated system.

So perhaps it becomes like other types of electronics where the functionality is commoditized and, although you can still find expensive artisanal stuff, most people can't tell the difference.
This is very true. Once the design of the printed circuit boards is finished, mass production is very cheap. Servo motors are very cheap as well. Only very few components of an electronic groupset require the high level of precision engineering that many mechanical groupset components require. It is only a matter of time until some overseas OEM manufacturer provides the wireless shifting logic and actuators for $10 a piece in bulk to anyone who wants to integrate that into their products. I can imagine that in three years we see bigger brands integrate such a product in their bikes without even needing to depend on Shimano, SRAM or Campagnolo. Profit for them.

inertianinja
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:14 pm

by inertianinja

0x47af7d8f4dd51267 wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:46 pm
inertianinja wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:23 pm
dgasmd wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:16 pm
inertianinja wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:06 pm


After reading a bunch of reviews and Campy's own marketing, I came here to ask the same question. Not clear on what their differentiator is. And, I wonder how a $5,300 groupset fares when there are rumblings of super-cheap options coming out of China that will move the chain from one gear to another gear for like a tenth of the price.
Well, to be fair, Campy has always had its niche and has never been a leader in discounts and/or price. I do think that they'll have a harder time justifying their prices compared to the past. They are repairable and all parts availabel, but who the heck fixes anything anymore? Musch harder to justify the initial higher price for something that lasts forever when forever is only 9-16 months until the next new model of the next new cheaper and prittier thing comes out.
I've heard commentary that it's much easier to design a mechanism around electronic servo motors than it is to design a cable actuated system.

So perhaps it becomes like other types of electronics where the functionality is commoditized and, although you can still find expensive artisanal stuff, most people can't tell the difference.
This is very true. Once the design of the printed circuit boards is finished, mass production is very cheap. Servo motors are very cheap as well. Only very few components of an electronic groupest require the high level of precision engineering that many mechanical groupset components require. It is only a matter of time until some overseas OEM manufacturer provides the wireless shifting logic and actuators for $10 a piece in bulk to anyone who wants to integrate that into their products. I can imagine that in three years we see bigger brands integrate such a product in their bikes without even needing to depend on Shimano, SRAM or Campagnolo. Profit for them.
If that happens, Campy will have to innovate.

For the past what, 100+ years they've been making mechanical groupsets in a way that some people love. But you can only make artisinal horse carriages for so long without pivoting.

They can either go democratized or niche.

For niche, the future might be exotic materials, ultra-lightweight stuff, best-in-world integration with other tech (power meter, other sensors), etc. But it's not going to be how well it moves the chain from one sprocket to another.

For democratized, maybe it's "our groupset and sensors integrate seamlessly with Apple and Android."

The EV car analogy is perfect. Ferrari and Campy might have an analog history but I don't see how they're attracting the next gen of buyers on that heritage with these prices.

MarkMcM
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:24 pm

by MarkMcM

0x47af7d8f4dd51267 wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:46 pm
This is very true. Once the design of the printed circuit boards is finished, mass production is very cheap. Servo motors are very cheap as well. Only very few components of an electronic groupset require the high level of precision engineering that many mechanical groupset components require. It is only a matter of time until some overseas OEM manufacturer provides the wireless shifting logic and actuators for $10 a piece in bulk to anyone who wants to integrate that into their products. I can imagine that in three years we see bigger brands integrate such a product in their bikes without even needing to depend on Shimano, SRAM or Campagnolo. Profit for them.
I'm pretty sure electronic derailleurs don't use servo motors (closed loop control), instead they use stepper motors (open loop control), which are even cheaper.

ivonenand
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:39 pm

by ivonenand

Nope, not stepper motors. Shimano uses a classic brushed motor and then a plastic gearbox to achieve the required torque. I don't event think they have an absolute angle sensor in there; my guess is that they only count the revolutions on the motor (or perhaps one of the cogs in the gearbox) to establish the position.

Ivo

Llanberis
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:10 am

by Llanberis

I think this has been discussed yet - there's no more CULT bearings to the new SR chainset? (According to official webpage, it's just USB.) If so, why?

Ritxis
Posts: 1119
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm
Location: San Sebastian

by Ritxis

Llanberis wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 5:28 pm
I think this has been discussed yet - there's no more CULT bearings to the new SR chainset? (According to official webpage, it's just USB.) If so, why?

Do you seriously think that USB or CULT is better than a good quality steel bearing???? more expensive for sure...

rollinslow
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Location: New York

by rollinslow

I saw that...no seramoc bearing but instead bike radar reports use of bushings rather than bearings? Is that true???!
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Karvalo
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by Karvalo

inertianinja wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:06 pm
dgasmd wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 3:06 pm
Forgive me for the questions that I am sure have been discussed in the last 112 pages, but I came late to the thread. Have been out of cycling for a couple of years. 1. Is the wireless grouppo just for 12 sp or is there a version for 11 sp too? 2. Can the 11 sp cranks be used for the 12 sp wireless? I know they are the same for 11 sp and 12 sp mechanical at least. 3. Is this new wireless just for disc brakes or can they be used with mechanical/standard brakes? I have no use for disc and will not ditch >$10K in wheels and swap 3 frames just to use disc. Pointless to me personally. Thanks in advance.
After reading a bunch of reviews and Campy's own marketing, I came here to ask the same question. Not clear on what their differentiator is. And, I wonder how a $5,300 groupset fares when there are rumblings of super-cheap options coming out of China that will move the chain from one gear to another gear for like a tenth of the price.
You read a bunch of reviews and you still need to ask if there's an 11sp version and /or a rim brake version?

inertianinja
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:14 pm

by inertianinja

Karvalo wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 5:40 pm
inertianinja wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 4:06 pm
dgasmd wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 3:06 pm
Forgive me for the questions that I am sure have been discussed in the last 112 pages, but I came late to the thread. Have been out of cycling for a couple of years. 1. Is the wireless grouppo just for 12 sp or is there a version for 11 sp too? 2. Can the 11 sp cranks be used for the 12 sp wireless? I know they are the same for 11 sp and 12 sp mechanical at least. 3. Is this new wireless just for disc brakes or can they be used with mechanical/standard brakes? I have no use for disc and will not ditch >$10K in wheels and swap 3 frames just to use disc. Pointless to me personally. Thanks in advance.
After reading a bunch of reviews and Campy's own marketing, I came here to ask the same question. Not clear on what their differentiator is. And, I wonder how a $5,300 groupset fares when there are rumblings of super-cheap options coming out of China that will move the chain from one gear to another gear for like a tenth of the price.
You read a bunch of reviews and you still need to ask if there's an 11sp version and /or a rim brake version?
I didn't ask that question, that was the other poster.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



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