Rumors Next Generation Campagnolo Road?

Back by popular demand, the general all-things Road forum!

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MarkMcM
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:24 pm

by MarkMcM

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 10:08 pm
Time trialists are frankly the least likely individuals to use a 10t cog or even a 13t cog. They want to be in the middle of whatever cassette they choose, and will select chainrings to suit.
Actually, the time trialists are going to love the 10 tooth sprocket. By adding an additional unused sprocket on the end of the cassette, it pushes the sprockets that they do use further toward the middle of the cassette.

raggedtrousers
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:29 pm

by raggedtrousers

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 10:08 pm

Time trialists are frankly the least likely individuals to use a 10t cog or even a 13t cog. They want to be in the middle of whatever cassette they choose, and will select chainrings to suit.
That was precisely my point. They are one of the small group who might have a point about the smaller cogs/chainrings argument. We are in furious agreement.

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RDY
Posts: 2355
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm

by RDY

Yoln wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 7:40 pm
Llanberis wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 6:28 pm
I've been hoping the new PM chainset would come with backwards-compatibility and allow me to finally use a Campag chainset with Time pedals while having a PM (I don't like all the other available options; not Stages, not SRM spider, not Assioma / Garmin). I've decided to give up and just stick with my EXAKT's. Even they finally figure it out, and even I could swap out USB to CULT myself, the new BCD makes it impossible to work with the existing 52/36 chain rings. :(
4iii crank-PM with SR12 crankset and time pedals is both very light, very aesthetically pleasing, very reliable, and shifts perfectly
I wouldn't match very reliable and TIME pedals too closely together, nor 4iiis. TIME road cleats are appallingly flimsy, I recently had an Xpresso pedal break and fold in half (under high torque bot not massive power), their bearings / bushings are a joke, and the less said about the short lived Cyclo's problems the better. I'm finally going to abandon Xpresso / Xpros for the midfootcycling pedals. My experience with 4iiis 105 left sided crank was poor, and was very similar to feedback received by a couple of LBSes which both advised me to return and refund them and get a quarq spider.

Lina
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

MarkMcM wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 9:36 pm
Lina wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 9:19 pm
Sure, the 10t has a marginally worse efficiency. But starting from a 10t also means that you get a more usable gearing that is marginally lighter.
You don't get more usable gearing if the chainring sizes has been decreased in proportion (which they have).
Yes you do. You get better steps between gears by starting at 10t.

blaugrana
Posts: 457
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 9:49 pm

by blaugrana

Sin2000 wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 5:57 pm
The one positive for me is the gear ratios. They just make sense - 1st 8 sprockets are 1 tooth increments (10-25 and 10-27) and the range is still huge. For me, a 45-29 with a 10-27 would give me (almost) every gear I ever wanted.
One thing that is worth pointing out, though, is that counting the teeth difference between cogs doesn't tell the whole story about the difference in gear ratios. The relative difference between the 10 and 11 teeth cogs is a lot greater than between the 16 and 17. For racing or in any situation where you actually pedal and put down power at these speeds (it can even be a downhill or section on a zone two ride, you don't have to be a pro to use these gears), this is far from ideal.

Essentially there is no free lunch here. For a set number of sprockets in the cassette, you can choose the ratios however you want, but there is no combination that magically gives smaller spacing with the same range. Going to very small chainrings, as SRAM already did, gives that illusion, but that is because the 1 tooth jumps at the bottom are effectively larger.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

blaugrana wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:27 am
Sin2000 wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 5:57 pm
The one positive for me is the gear ratios. They just make sense - 1st 8 sprockets are 1 tooth increments (10-25 and 10-27) and the range is still huge. For me, a 45-29 with a 10-27 would give me (almost) every gear I ever wanted.
One thing that is worth pointing out, though, is that counting the teeth difference between cogs doesn't tell the whole story about the difference in gear ratios. The relative difference between the 10 and 11 teeth cogs is a lot greater than between the 16 and 17. For racing or in any situation where you actually pedal and put down power at these speeds (it can even be a downhill or section on a zone two ride, you don't have to be a pro to use these gears), this is far from ideal.

Essentially there is no free lunch here. For a set number of sprockets in the cassette, you can choose the ratios however you want, but there is no combination that magically gives smaller spacing with the same range. Going to very small chainrings, as SRAM already did, gives that illusion, but that is because the 1 tooth jumps at the bottom are effectively larger.

I'd rather have 10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17 on the Campy 10-27 than 11-12-13-14-15-16-17-19 like on the Shimano 11-30. That last jump from 17->19 is 11.8%. 10->11 is just 10%. You will end up shifting between the 17/19 on a Shimano cassette a lot more often than between the 10/11 on a Campy cassette (almost never.)

Shimano will eventually fall in line. The 10t cog is a necessity on MTB and gravel...it is an inevitability that it comes to GRX at some point, and then road after that.

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neeb
Posts: 1101
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:19 pm

by neeb

The way to get the best of both worlds is to select the cassette/wheel/bike for the ride. 52/36 - 11-25 is fine for 90% of my rides. If I need bigger sprockets for hills I use a different bike. If I only had one bike I'd swap the wheels. If I only had one set of wheels I'd swap the cassette.

robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

I remember Campy talking about why a 9t cog was important to eKar. It was less about the 9t cog itself, and more about putting frequently used cogs in a better spot on the cassette (optimal for chainline and component wear) with the 9t considered more of an "overdrive" cog.

Now of course, this is predicated on a 1x setup. The game changes for 2x obviously.

ichobi
Posts: 1793
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 pm

by ichobi

blaugrana wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:27 am
Sin2000 wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 5:57 pm
The one positive for me is the gear ratios. They just make sense - 1st 8 sprockets are 1 tooth increments (10-25 and 10-27) and the range is still huge. For me, a 45-29 with a 10-27 would give me (almost) every gear I ever wanted.
One thing that is worth pointing out, though, is that counting the teeth difference between cogs doesn't tell the whole story about the difference in gear ratios. The relative difference between the 10 and 11 teeth cogs is a lot greater than between the 16 and 17. For racing or in any situation where you actually pedal and put down power at these speeds (it can even be a downhill or section on a zone two ride, you don't have to be a pro to use these gears), this is far from ideal.

Essentially there is no free lunch here. For a set number of sprockets in the cassette, you can choose the ratios however you want, but there is no combination that magically gives smaller spacing with the same range. Going to very small chainrings, as SRAM already did, gives that illusion, but that is because the 1 tooth jumps at the bottom are effectively larger.
On the flip side, The way SRAM designed its bailout gear is more sensible, at least for 10-33t. The 33t has a big jump from the next gear, and you would only use the 33t in the real steep gradient so it doesn't matter much if it has big jump, you wouldn't use it regularly anyways.

jlok
Posts: 2400
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

btw it's an exciting time that we have many many 12-speed cog sets now between the big 3 (let's just assume they're compatible ;)

10-25/26/27/28/29/30/32/33/36
11-29/30/32/34
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hkatrib
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:16 pm

by hkatrib

Does anyone know if the new C-link backward compatible with the EPS SR 12 speed chain?
Would really appreciate some insight from Campy Tech experts!


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BenCousins
Posts: 1367
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:46 am

by BenCousins

hkatrib wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:18 am
Does anyone know if the new C-link backward compatible with the EPS SR 12 speed chain?
Would really appreciate some insight from Campy Tech experts!


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Yes, I'd love to know this too. it will save me a lot of hassle.

hkatrib
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:16 pm

by hkatrib

BenCousins wrote:
hkatrib wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:18 am
Does anyone know if the new C-link backward compatible with the EPS SR 12 speed chain?
Would really appreciate some insight from Campy Tech experts!


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Yes, I'd love to know this too. it will save me a lot of hassle.
Exactly.
Even though the site states that the new chain is compatible with all 12 speed group sets, it gives little about the C-link details even in the newly releases manuals and tech docs.

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Yoln
Posts: 965
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm

by Yoln

hkatrib wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:29 am
BenCousins wrote:
hkatrib wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:18 am
Does anyone know if the new C-link backward compatible with the EPS SR 12 speed chain?
Would really appreciate some insight from Campy Tech experts!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, I'd love to know this too. it will save me a lot of hassle.
Exactly.
Even though the site states that the new chain is compatible with all 12 speed group sets, it gives little about the C-link details even in the newly releases manuals and tech docs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The chain is the same. Of course it's compatible
Litespeed Gravel Ultimate : https://tinyurl.com/zvxxy8zk
Wilier “Cento Ramato“ : https://tinyurl.com/29vs8vre
#RETIRED# Lynskey “the Do-it-all Helix” 🧬:https://tinyurl.com/bdmb5y24

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morrisond
Posts: 1325
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm

by morrisond

I'm with everyone else - ill take the tighter gearing over any minor loss in efficiency.

Based on how sensitive bikes are in the tunnel - I'm guessing the big FD/RD cause more extra drag than the driveline losses.

12sp mech with 45/29 new cranks and 10-25 cassette, I think I read somewhere old 12sp will work with the 25 cassette. It could be a fun experiment.

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