Rumors Next Generation Campagnolo Road?

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simbikotic
Posts: 154
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by simbikotic

For anyone who is interested in comparing gear ratios vs the previous 12 speed generation. I have picked the middle versions of cassette and crankset in both cases.
Old 12s 52-36, 11-32
Screenshot from 2023-05-30 15-49-22.png
New 12s 48-32, 10-27
Screenshot from 2023-05-30 15-49-06.png
Source links:
http://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=DERS ... H&DV=teeth
http://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=DERS ... H&DV=teeth

rudye9mr
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by rudye9mr

so...can i use a current 50/34 12s crank with a n3w hub and 10-29 cassette from the new groupset or the current 12s RD is a no-no for that 10T gear?

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usr
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by usr

solarider wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 9:22 pm
Shimano for the win with SRAM only just missing out and Campagnolo trailing a long way behind. It just makes more sense, and even voting with the heart Campagnolo fails to set the pulse racing nowadays. Even Campagnolo themselves admit that the thumb shifter divided opinion, but given that it was a 50/50, why not hold onto it as a point of difference and annoy the 50% who didn't like it (and had a choice to buy something else anyway) rather than the 50% that did (who now have lost another reason to stick with Campagnolo).
We'll never know why, but my money is on pro rider's opinion: imagine you're a young rider who was born shortly before ten speed (or after), what are the chances that you've ever ridden Campagnolo? How happy will you be the day you hear that your boss made a contract with that weird thumb button company? They will ride it if course, and they will praise it whenever microphones are around because that's their job, but chances are if they are not happy management will notice and if they ever spend time with people from their gear supplier they won't bite their lips. They listened to the 1% of their users who'll never become customers.

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Aryeh
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by Aryeh

LedZeppelin007 wrote:Love the gear ratio options. Absolutely hate everything else, especially the price.

SRAM could learn a thing or two about gear ratios from Campy.

For most people outside of Crit racers and pros, that 45/29, 10-29t is awesome.


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If only you could pair a 48/32 with a 10-32.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

In fairness to SRAM, they have 43/30, 46/33, 48/35, 50/37, 52/39, 54/41 and 56/43 as chainring options. They also have 10-28, 10-30, 10-33 and 10-36… all interchangeable. They used to have 10-26 too, but very few people bought it.

Ritxis
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by Ritxis

mortirolo wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 11:11 pm
Ritxis wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 9:13 pm
mortirolo wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 8:17 pm
positives:
Wireless
Height of the shifters decreased slightly.
12-speed C-link

negatives:
Where is the power meter offering?
USB bearings on crankset
No rim brake option. (or a hydraulic rim brake)

conclusion:
I keep my mechanical SR11.
Let's be serious, what's really beneficial about wireless? it takes 5-10 mi. more into riding a bike? saying that..."that's cool" my bike doesn't have cables (they can hardly be seen)
see some huge derailleurs?

the most bleeding... wireless group but 2 different batteries? really george? If it is due to patent problems (which I do not understand)

It would not have been smarter on the part of Campgnolo......

you renew the group making the improvements with respect to EPS with an internal battery and more accomplished cabling and you leave wireless communication like Shimano and FSA WE..... you have a less bulky group and maybe even something lighter.....going wireless for marketing without doing something more attractive, I don't see it as logical...
Perhaps there are some advantages too.
No cable rattling, no battery in the seatpost, maintenance, charging, compatibility...
Theoretically a wireless groupset is compatible with all frameset.
I mean with a C40 colnago too.

So for me the huge mistake is:
There is no rim brake compatible lever or hydraulic rim brake option.

How much longer does it take to assemble the cables of a current Di2? not even 5 minutes and I have 2 left over.....with my DI2 11 with more cables, it didn't cost me more.....3 years without having to touch the battery or cables, until I disassembled the bike...... my review is in the sense that they have gone wireless but without the possibility of exchanging the batteries.....for that you make whoever assembles the group take a few more minutes and offer them a group with a better appearance....

Ritxis
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by Ritxis

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 9:37 pm
Clever, by adding external charging contacts to the derailleur batteries and making each one unique, Campy can likely claim they are permanently attached, skirting SRAM”s removable battery patent.
about the batteries and patents...I don't understand how they can be made removable in both gears but not interchangeable??? and also how you can prevent an electrical/electronic device from having a power source of the same brand......I would understand that a patent limits you to a specific battery and its anchoring system....but to this from Campagnolo..... :noidea:

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Ritxis wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 5:45 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 9:37 pm
Clever, by adding external charging contacts to the derailleur batteries and making each one unique, Campy can likely claim they are permanently attached, skirting SRAM”s removable battery patent.
about the batteries and patents...I don't understand how they can be made removable in both gears but not interchangeable??? and also how you can prevent an electrical/electronic device from having a power source of the same brand......I would understand that a patent limits you to a specific battery and its anchoring system....but to this from Campagnolo..... :noidea:

I don’t quite understand it either, but Shimano, FSA, Campagnolo and WheelTop have all been affected.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

TobinHatesYou wrote:In fairness to SRAM, they have 43/30, 46/33, 48/35, 50/37, 52/39, 54/41 and 56/43 as chainring options. They also have 10-28, 10-30, 10-33 and 10-36… all interchangeable. They used to have 10-26 too, but very few people bought it.
True to a degree. 52/39, 54/41 & 56/43 are only available as powermeters and require a specific front mech unless you’re using a front mech clamp. There is no option to buy them without the mech too.


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ichobi
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by ichobi

The more i think about it the less sense it makes. They wanna be a ferrari or hermes? Campy’s brand heritage alone doesn’t warrant this price tag yet.

A 6000 usd Leica Q3 still have some redeeming qualities like craftsmanship, and the summilux lens. What do this groupset has that’s distinctively 40% more remarkable than the rest of the market? Surely not the name nor the heritage. May be if they never discount and ask people to lineup for limited release like when you want to buy a Birkin - that one still have some rituals and myths associated (regardless of what we think about that), this one is no more than a commodity, just another groupset.

Especially when they practically have no single aspect that work better than the competitors. The vibe isn’t there. The previous mechanical group-set appears more prestigious than this wireless stuff, if we wanna do the prestige route.

solarider
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by solarider

We'll never know why, but my money is on pro rider's opinion
Pure madness if that is the case. Campagnolo are so far behind Shimano and SRAM in the pro peleton that the opinion of sponsored riders should not count for much. They have far fewer teams, and as a result simply don't have the infrastructure and support network that the other 2 have. Their presence is so small that the pro peleton is almost irrelevant to their marketing message these days. That is a monumental shift from 20 years ago and the investment required to bridge the gap to what they have lost would be crippling and is seemingly not something they are minded to fix. Even their press releases and imagery now speak more to affluent MAMILS rather than the cut and thrust of the World Tour. At $5k a pop it needs to!

To me they have got it so badly wrong that they need to do some fairly quick changes. That would put me off making a $5k investment in something that is by design destined to be short lived. I made that mistake with EPS V1 when it was quickly upgraded with non compatible parts. I am fearful of doing the same again. I want a groupset with a design and interface that is going to last. Another advantage that Campagnolo have conceded to the competition with their electronic group sets.

I was a Campagnolo fanboy until gen 2 EPS when the other 2 manufacturers simply gained an unassailable advantage from which I can't see Campagnolo recovering. They have such a limited range at unattainable price points with esoteric designs forced on them by patent restrictions and little to no OEM business.

I don't have an existential fear for Campagnolo but their business model seems designed to be niche and irrelevant to most riders. As you rightly say, there is now an entire lost generation of riders for whom Campagnolo has never been an option and isn't something that they even aspire to. They are the Morgan Car Company of the cycling world. Artisans with a small but fanatical fan base.

What could they have done differently this time?

Semi wireless to avoid the bulky and non interchangeable batteries. It works for Shimano and they could then at least then win the battery competition. Longer between charges (instead of having the worst battery life), smaller mechs (instead of being the bulkiest).

13 speed to at least raise the bar in one aspect. Being first to anything at least gives first mover advantage and wheel changes in the peleton are mostly delivered by your own team these days rather than neutral service at the pointy end of the race so that layer of complexity is irrelevant.

Beautiful design to at least get the pulse racing vs their automaton competition. Even just changing the logos would be a start.

Keep the thumb shifter to retain a POD.

Be the brand that stands for low friction. Whether it is marketing hype or not, the use of Cult bearings, larger cogs and oversized pulleys would at least have given them another advantage over the other 2 who seem happy to leave that benefit to aftermarket companies. Instead they have downgraded the bearings, introduced bushings and made the cogs smaller.

In short, they have barely played catch up and needed to leapfrog the competition now more than ever before. And at the asking price sadly I just don't see them succeeding.
Last edited by solarider on Wed May 31, 2023 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

GaBa
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by GaBa

ichobi wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 6:45 am
The more i think about it the less sense it makes. They wanna be a ferrari or hermes? Campy’s brand heritage alone doesn’t warrant this price tag yet.

A 6000 usd Leica Q3 still have some redeeming qualities like craftsmanship, and the summilux lens. What do this groupset has that’s distinctively 40% more remarkable than the rest of the market? Surely not the name nor the heritage. May be if they never discount and ask people to lineup for limited release like when you want to buy a Birkin - that one still have some rituals and myths associated (regardless of what we think about that), this one is no more than a commodity, just another groupset.

Especially when they practically have no single aspect that work better than the competitors. The vibe isn’t there. The previous mechanical group-set appears more prestigious than this wireless stuff, if we wanna do the prestige route.
Yeah, I second that. Was looking forward to this reveal to get an idea what I could be getting for my potential next build. And sadly as a long-time (ca. 10 years I think) Campagnolo user I am not impressed with what I saw and honestly I got squeezed out of the market. Ultegra Di2 is such a great deal and even DA Di2 seem like a bargain against SR WRL.

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guyc
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by guyc

If Campag are trying to make this a Veblen good they're on a hiding to nothing.

Ritxis
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by Ritxis

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 5:49 am
Ritxis wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 5:45 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 9:37 pm
Clever, by adding external charging contacts to the derailleur batteries and making each one unique, Campy can likely claim they are permanently attached, skirting SRAM”s removable battery patent.
about the batteries and patents...I don't understand how they can be made removable in both gears but not interchangeable??? and also how you can prevent an electrical/electronic device from having a power source of the same brand......I would understand that a patent limits you to a specific battery and its anchoring system....but to this from Campagnolo..... :noidea:

I don’t quite understand it either, but Shimano, FSA, Campagnolo and WheelTop have all been affected.
Many years before Sram had its eTap, Shimano already had Di2 prototypes in competition with a removable battery... Shimano still preferred to continue with cables rather than knowing their reasons, I don't think it's because of Sram patents... maybe reliability? that the Di2 is not just shifters/shifts and is thinking further(e-bikes) not just Road/MTB/gravel.......

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

Ritxis wrote:
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 5:49 am
Ritxis wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 5:45 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 9:37 pm
Clever, by adding external charging contacts to the derailleur batteries and making each one unique, Campy can likely claim they are permanently attached, skirting SRAM”s removable battery patent.
about the batteries and patents...I don't understand how they can be made removable in both gears but not interchangeable??? and also how you can prevent an electrical/electronic device from having a power source of the same brand......I would understand that a patent limits you to a specific battery and its anchoring system....but to this from Campagnolo..... :noidea:

I don’t quite understand it either, but Shimano, FSA, Campagnolo and WheelTop have all been affected.
Many years before Sram had its eTap, Shimano already had Di2 prototypes in competition with a removable battery... Shimano still preferred to continue with cables rather than knowing their reasons, I don't think it's because of Sram patents... maybe reliability? that the Di2 is not just shifters/shifts and is thinking further(e-bikes) not just Road/MTB/gravel.......
Are you referring to the original Di2 battery? I’m pretty sure that was a production item. You can still use it with 11 speed Di2.


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