Campagnolo Super Record EPS 12s Chain Slap Issue

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Supergooch
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:09 am

by Supergooch

Sorry tomato - I read incorrectly. Your correct it slaps and jumps off chain ring as well !
Sorry im quite annoyed by this issue as its top of the range gear for racing and performs very poorly in this curcumstance.

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pdlpsher1
Posts: 4169
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

I've observed the same thing on a Shimano drivetrain with the 11-34 cassette, although it's not nearly as pronounced as shown in the video.

Supergooch
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:09 am

by Supergooch

Thank you all for your feedback.
So from the feedback I have recieved im making the conculsion that this is a limitation of the product as Campagnolo has mentioned.
It is a design flaw and the main cause due to the increased weight of the cassette .
This is very dissapointing news. So much for the reviews on the product ,no one picked this up.
Suprised the pros have not posted this info. Maybe they have been muzzled as its not good for the sponsers.

maxim809
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by maxim809

@Supergooch, thanks for the vid. That pronounced of a slap would definitely be infuriating during a crit.

So I just had a try this morning to compare. My setup varies a bit from yours but:

Setup
1. 52/36 x 11-32T
2. Bora WTO60's***
3. SR12 EPSv4
4. 400mm chainstay with 110 links

*** Factory overpacked grease cleaned and replaced with mineral oil. Just making it clear for the others who mentioned sticky hubs earlier.

Steps
1. Basically replicated your video of hard hand pedaling followed by abrupt stop.
2. Tested in each cog from 11T down to 16T

Results: The chain definitely "snaps", but for my case only makes it halfway to the chainstay. The chain never makes contact in any of the cogs. While not great, there is something "lucky" about my setup that mitigates a full slap to the stays. The discrepancy likely stems from the differences with our drivetrain setup, links, and stay length combos. I am using the heavier 11-32T block, but it is SR. I wonder what would happen if I threw a Chorus block on there. But this is pretty sucky nonetheless as I don't know what are the next steps to resolve this without changing drivetrains.

For what it's worth, I also tried another setup (crit):
1. 53/39 x 11-30T
2. Enve 4.5 SES w/ DTSwiss240's
3. Shimano Di2 9150

Absolutely zero movement of the chain between 12T-15T. Very tiny but noticeable movement in 53x11T, now that I know what I'm looking for.

Wow... Fascinating... wonder if Campagnolo has further recommendations on how to avoid or reduce the amount of slap. But given they admit it's a limitation... I suppose it's under the category of "quirk" one must live with.

ParisCarbon
Posts: 1946
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:39 am
Location: Winnipeg Canada

by ParisCarbon

I did the CULT bearing mod to all my WTOs.. same slap.. the grease doesn't make a difference... basically went from grease to oil!

maxim809 wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:58 pm
@Supergooch, thanks for the vid. That pronounced of a slap would definitely be infuriating during a crit.

So I just had a try this morning to compare. My setup varies a bit from yours but:

Setup
1. 52/36 x 11-32T
2. Bora WTO60's***
3. SR12 EPSv4
4. 400mm chainstay with 110 links

*** Factory overpacked grease cleaned and replaced with mineral oil. Just making it clear for the others who mentioned sticky hubs earlier.

Steps
1. Basically replicated your video of hard hand pedaling followed by abrupt stop.
2. Tested in each cog from 11T down to 16T

Results: The chain definitely "snaps", but for my case only makes it halfway to the chainstay. The chain never makes contact in any of the cogs. While not great, there is something "lucky" about my setup that mitigates a full slap to the stays. The discrepancy likely stems from the differences with our drivetrain setup, links, and stay length combos. I am using the heavier 11-32T block, but it is SR. I wonder what would happen if I threw a Chorus block on there. But this is pretty sucky nonetheless as I don't know what are the next steps to resolve this without changing drivetrains.

For what it's worth, I also tried another setup (crit):
1. 53/39 x 11-30T
2. Enve 4.5 SES w/ DTSwiss240's
3. Shimano Di2 9150

Absolutely zero movement of the chain between 12T-15T. Very tiny but noticeable movement in 53x11T, now that I know what I'm looking for.

Wow... Fascinating... wonder if Campagnolo has further recommendations on how to avoid or reduce the amount of slap. But given they admit it's a limitation... I suppose it's under the category of "quirk" one must live with.

Visqu
Posts: 293
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:19 pm

by Visqu

Has someone tried to adjust the h-screw, or whatever campy calls the angle adjustment/cage tension?

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corky
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Location: The Surrey Hills

by corky

Visqu wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:13 am
Has someone tried to adjust the h-screw, or whatever campy calls the angle adjustment/cage tension?
If you read through the thread I have already suggested this....B screw. And yes for me this was the source of my problem.

Visqu
Posts: 293
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:19 pm

by Visqu

corky wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:24 am
Visqu wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:13 am
Has someone tried to adjust the h-screw, or whatever campy calls the angle adjustment/cage tension?
If you read through the thread I have already suggested this....B screw. And yes for me this was the source of my problem.
I did see the b-screw mentioned but it's not the same as the h-screw.

bm0p700f
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
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by bm0p700f

I think there is a way to avoid this. One way is not to pedal at 130rpm and abruptly stop. Another is h screw adjustment.

B screw is different and the current mechs have that as well. The h screw adjusts the cage spring tension. While there maybe nothing wrong with the h screw position from a shifting perspective. Winding it up as much as possible might make the slap less pronounced.

All drive trains do this to a certain extent.

Butcher
Shop Owner
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:58 am

by Butcher

Pros muzzled? I do not think pros ride like this.

Supergooch
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:09 am

by Supergooch

bm0p700f wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:02 pm
I think there is a way to avoid this. One way is not to pedal at 130rpm and abruptly stop. Another is h screw adjustment.

B screw is different and the current mechs have that as well. The h screw adjusts the cage spring tension. While there maybe nothing wrong with the h screw position from a shifting perspective. Winding it up as much as possible might make the slap less pronounced.

All drive trains do this to a certain extent.
Hi just to confirm I don't wind it up to 130 cadence . Is around 105 max which is perfectly normal when racing. If you read the thread it's quite normal to be at pace and stop when hitting a corner or responding to an attack when you get on the wheel.
I don't think to change the style of riding is the answer.

Supergooch
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 1:09 am

by Supergooch

Butcher wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:31 pm
Pros muzzled? I do not think pros ride like this.
I'm doing my best to ignore this comment as it seems like victim blaming.
So in a sprint lunging for the line would not simulate this ?

maxim809
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Posts: 890
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:28 am

by maxim809

Yes, absorb what's useful and ignore what's not.

There are countless sprint finish highlight reels of Caleb Ewan spinning at +110rpm and then immediately stopping for victory salute. He rides EPSv4 as he continues to ride for Lotto Soudal.

That's a potential chain slap every time he crosses the finish. There's a drinking game for ya. Take a shot every time you see a Cat5 salute -- but only if he is riding on EPSv4! Remember, he was on Di2 during his time on Orica GreenEdge.

Couple thoughts on why we don't hear about this issue from pros:
1. It's their job to represent their sponsors and they put their careers at risk speaking out negatively. It is extremely rare to get candid opinions like we just did with Froome. For them, this is business.

2. It is no secret that pro's run a custom modified EPSv4 with elongated thumb shifters. It's plausible that the pros are outfitted with something custom that mitigates or entirely removes this issue. That, or they are just told hey deal with it. At the end of the day it is not their equipment. See point 1 about business.

Why we don't hear about this issue from recreational cyclists:
1. Most people aren't riding Campy, let alone EPSv4.

2. Amongst that already super small niche group, even fewer are recreational racers on EPSv4. I literally only know two people who race on EPS, and they are on older 11spd versions. Maybe that's speaking more to how little friends I have, I don't know. But I do know I'm completely drunk because I just played that drinking game mentioned earlier. Can someone please turn off all the lights? Super bright in here.

Anyway, joking aside I'm going to try tightening mine up to see if I can eliminate my half-slap. Worth a shot! :)

XCProMD
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:25 am
Location: Cantabria

by XCProMD

This is a know issue of heavy cassettes. Increasing the tension on the cage helps to a large extent. I would advice the OP to disassemble the cage unit and see if, as usual, the cage tension spring is not in the hole adding more tension to the unit. If that’s the case just assemble the spring tip to be in the hole adding more tension to it.

As you all know, a perfect spring adds a constant tension throughout its travel. However, a torsion could spring like this will vary its diameter which in run will result in a tension diagram that is different to a flat straight line. It’s in the most relaxed positions (smaller cogs) where you want your spring to take up the slack the angular I eterna of the cassette creates on the chain. As it comes out of the factory the tension can be insufficient, as apparently is your case.

No wonder Sram uses clutches on their 12s systems.


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tomato
Posts: 729
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:37 pm

by tomato

XCProMD wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:05 pm
As you all know, a perfect spring adds a constant tension throughout its travel. However, a torsion could spring like this will vary its diameter which in run will result in a tension diagram that is different to a flat straight line. It’s in the most relaxed positions (smaller cogs) where you want your spring to take up the slack the angular I eterna of the cassette creates on the chain. As it comes out of the factory the tension can be insufficient, as apparently is your case.
No, it doesn't.

by Weenie


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