My adventures in chain waxing: goals, reviews, suggestions...

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Lakal
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:20 pm

by Lakal

ViperFFM wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:53 am
Some general questions:

Why do people wax in general? Ive looked at the data, and even assuming that ZFF is still oeprating indepently (which I highly doubt when CeramicSpeed Products suddenly are the hottest stuff since sliced bread for both wax and cleaning), all wattage gains are within testing error?

Dont get me wrong I wax my chains as well, but mostly for a clean drivetrain and reduced wear.
1. Ufo drip is not the best in the test file.
2. Several people tried the ufo cleaner in this thread and it is a lot easier to use than mineral spirits etc.
3. ZFC test is not about wattage gains but chain wear.

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MrStop
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:59 pm
Location: United States

by MrStop

GaBa wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:41 pm
AnthonyE wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:35 pm
Tungsten Disulfide is an amazing material. This stuff is used in high end grease, you'll find it in sealed gear systems where the WS2 will smooth out the gear teeth.

I use the Silca SS Hot Melt and don't mind the darkness of the WS2 at all. But as the other person mentioned when working with this stuff in powder form you need to be really careful to not breath it in. Please wear a mask!!!
So one should worry and act carefully by wearing a mask only when in powder, no worries when in melted or solid form?
While I'm not, by any means, fluent or an expert in these matters, in looking at the MSDS the majority of the concerns appear to be in the bare powder form. Additionally it would appear to require high concentrations of exposure to dust. My hypothesis is that once it is suspended in wax or other solution, the risk is negligible. I think the amount we are using and limited contact with the product reduces our risk further.

Primary routes of entry: Inhalation, Ingestion, Skin or Eye contact (for dusts, mists, powder, and fumes)
Effects of overexposure: Tungsten Disulfide does not constitute an important health hazard, exposure is related chiefly to the dust arising out of the crushing and milling operations. Chronic inhalation of the dust may cause lung damage in humans.

https://www.microsurfacecorp.com/Tungst ... 2-MSDS.php
https://www.acsmaterial.com/pub/media/c ... e_WS2_.pdf

User avatar
JayDee81
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:45 pm
Location: Czech Republic

by JayDee81

Lakal wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:09 pm
ViperFFM wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:53 am
Some general questions:

Why do people wax in general? Ive looked at the data, and even assuming that ZFF is still oeprating indepently (which I highly doubt when CeramicSpeed Products suddenly are the hottest stuff since sliced bread for both wax and cleaning), all wattage gains are within testing error?

Dont get me wrong I wax my chains as well, but mostly for a clean drivetrain and reduced wear.
1. Ufo drip is not the best in the test file.
2. Several people tried the ufo cleaner in this thread and it is a lot easier to use than mineral spirits etc.
3. ZFC test is not about wattage gains but chain wear.
Has to be said that although the 3rd point is correct, ZFC also assumes that lower chain wear ~ less Watts lost.

AnthonyE
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:40 pm

by AnthonyE

ViperFFM wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:53 am
Some general questions:

Why do people wax in general? Ive looked at the data, and even assuming that ZFF is still oeprating indepently (which I highly doubt when CeramicSpeed Products suddenly are the hottest stuff since sliced bread for both wax and cleaning), all wattage gains are within testing error?

Dont get me wrong I wax my chains as well, but mostly for a clean drivetrain and reduced wear.
I think you answered your own question. I'd be willing to bet that most people are waxing for cleanliness and wear reduction. There is nothing worse than having to deal with a gunked up black chain. The minute you have to touch the chain for any maintenance or cleaning the black sludge gets everywhere. This is by far the #1 reason I wax.

AnthonyE
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:40 pm

by AnthonyE

MrStop wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:30 pm
GaBa wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:41 pm
AnthonyE wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:35 pm
Tungsten Disulfide is an amazing material. This stuff is used in high end grease, you'll find it in sealed gear systems where the WS2 will smooth out the gear teeth.

I use the Silca SS Hot Melt and don't mind the darkness of the WS2 at all. But as the other person mentioned when working with this stuff in powder form you need to be really careful to not breath it in. Please wear a mask!!!
So one should worry and act carefully by wearing a mask only when in powder, no worries when in melted or solid form?
While I'm not, by any means, fluent or an expert in these matters, in looking at the MSDS the majority of the concerns appear to be in the bare powder form. Additionally it would appear to require high concentrations of exposure to dust. My hypothesis is that once it is suspended in wax or other solution, the risk is negligible. I think the amount we are using and limited contact with the product reduces our risk further.

Primary routes of entry: Inhalation, Ingestion, Skin or Eye contact (for dusts, mists, powder, and fumes)
Effects of overexposure: Tungsten Disulfide does not constitute an important health hazard, exposure is related chiefly to the dust arising out of the crushing and milling operations. Chronic inhalation of the dust may cause lung damage in humans.

https://www.microsurfacecorp.com/Tungst ... 2-MSDS.php
https://www.acsmaterial.com/pub/media/c ... e_WS2_.pdf
I agree that once this stuff is in the wax there is no health risk. But you were talking about buying it in powder form to add to your mixture. And I'm not concerned about the WS2 necessarily, more that it's fine dust that becomes airborne very easily. Any very fine dust particulate poses respiritory health risks. As a woodworker I have become extremely cautious of fine dust particles as I personally notice the effects of exposure over the years. The large particles in a woodshop are easy to handle with dust collection but anything 2 microns and below are much more difficult to remove and cause the most damage. Once you get into the <2 micron range this stuff doesn't leave your lungs. Hence why I agree that you should wear a mask when adding any additives in powder form to your wax mixture.

MrStop
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:59 pm
Location: United States

by MrStop

Fully agree that a mask should be used when working with the dry powder!

TLN
Posts: 630
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:50 pm

by TLN

Lakal wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:09 pm
2. Several people tried the ufo cleaner in this thread and it is a lot easier to use than mineral spirits etc.
So UFO Clean is acceptable even for the first initial clean of chain? either new or when moving to waxing?
His: Orbea Orca OMX
Hers: Cannondale Synapse HM Disc

Lakal
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:20 pm

by Lakal

TLN wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:44 pm
Lakal wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 2:09 pm
2. Several people tried the ufo cleaner in this thread and it is a lot easier to use than mineral spirits etc.
So UFO Clean is acceptable even for the first initial clean of chain? either new or when moving to waxing?
Yes. I have stripped 4 new chains with the same 200ml UFO Clean.

You might need to use more if it is a used chain.

MrStop
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:59 pm
Location: United States

by MrStop

How does UFO compare to using mineral spirits as directed by MSW and ZFC?

Lakal
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:20 pm

by Lakal

MrStop wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:05 pm
How does UFO compare to using mineral spirits as directed by MSW and ZFC?
It is a lot easier:
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp-c ... ise-v2.pdf

https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp-c ... ide-V2.pdf

rhender
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:49 pm

by rhender

For those that are using plain paraffin wax, are you mixing anything into the wax or just straight parafin? I've been using just straight paraffin and found that it works well enough, but wonder if I could get closer to emulating the MSW.

JaeOne3345
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:27 am

by JaeOne3345

Yes, many of us are using straight up parrafin with no other additives.

It works absolutely fine. I was using MSW previously and when I need more I just started using Gulf Wax and haven't looked back. It's $4 per lb. at Wal Mart.

Since it keeps coming up over and over in the last few pages, yes, UFO Clean is worth it and easy to deal with. I've spent my fair share of time dealing with things like mineral spirits, naptha, etc. I prefer UFO Clean now.

ViperFFM
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:11 am
Location: Frankfurt am Main,DE

by ViperFFM

Lakal wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:11 pm
MrStop wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:05 pm
How does UFO compare to using mineral spirits as directed by MSW and ZFC?
It is a lot easier:
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp-c ... ise-v2.pdf

https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp-c ... ide-V2.pdf
This whole thing is really hard to believe for me. All of a sudden, Ceramicspeed enters the market and has one of the best wax-drips. Cool, fair enough. I have no problem believing this as all waxes are within statistical error anyways.

But then they release a cleaner that is not only besser than met spritis, gasoline etc. but also fully biodegradable? Any first hand experiences here? Its just hhard to beleive when you look at their BS marketing history for OSPWs.
carbonLORD wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:23 am
I'm a CAT 3 Masters racer, not a dentist.

voicycle
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:38 am

by voicycle

Sorry if this was covered earlier - I think I've been following for the last ten pages or so and have skimmed other parts but haven't seen any discussion on this:

How long would you expect to go between waxes on an indoor trainer? I burned through a chain early on by not rewaxing it for months, so now I think I'm a bit paranoid and over-waxing. I ride 3.5-7 hours a week indoors with 2.5-3.5hrs being hard interval sessions and the rest z2, and have been waxing once a week. That's partly about the ease of remembering, but also every time I re-dip I really notice the difference in feel and noise. It definitely sounds and feels rougher after 4-5 hours of use.

That makes me wonder how people are getting ~600km of dry outdoor use between waxes. That's like 5-6x as long, and my trainer should be running in perfectly optimal conditions.

No real difference in experience between using a newer/older chain or fresher/older wax. I'm using MSW and stripping new chains per ZFC (or sometimes buying them from a UK distributor that MSW has certified to offer chain prep services). I'd always assumed it was because of a mix of indoor/outdoor use, but we're now at the point in the winter where the bike that's on the trainer hasn't been out in months.

Is it just that the chain gets noisy and rough long before it actually needs a top-up?

(Also this thread needs an index or a summary or something!)

by Weenie


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uppis
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:05 am

by uppis

ViperFFM wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:36 pm
Lakal wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:11 pm
MrStop wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:05 pm
How does UFO compare to using mineral spirits as directed by MSW and ZFC?
It is a lot easier:
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp-c ... ise-v2.pdf

https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp-c ... ide-V2.pdf
This whole thing is really hard to believe for me. All of a sudden, Ceramicspeed enters the market and has one of the best wax-drips. Cool, fair enough. I have no problem believing this as all waxes are within statistical error anyways.

But then they release a cleaner that is not only besser than met spritis, gasoline etc. but also fully biodegradable? Any first hand experiences here? Its just hhard to beleive when you look at their BS marketing history for OSPWs.
Yes, have used it, its really good. Used to go with the long method with mineral spirits x3 and alcohol x2 (from ZFC and MSW sites). Ceramic speed works just as good with one short bath than those five combined, chain feels just as clean and MSW adheres just as nicely.
Have only used new chains and rinsed the ufo clean with one bath of alcohol because I was sceptical as well, but thats unnecessary as per ZFC. Ufo drivetrain clean also turns white when it gets in contact with water, easy to see when you have rinsed it off.

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