My adventures in chain waxing: goals, reviews, suggestions...
Moderator: robbosmans
This is what Silca says about WS2 https://silca.cc/blogs/silca/chain-friction-explained :
Surface Finish
We talked about the importance of how smooth the surface of the pin and inner plates are to reduce the friction between them. One of the interesting things about materials science is that there is no such thing as perfectly smooth, perfectly round, etc. Steel chains are rolled steel that is first hot rolled, then cold rolled to get the metal to the specified thickness. While it looks very smooth to the naked eye, all metal surfaces have imperfections, and we measure them by their peaks and valleys or RZ value.
Chain Surface
Here we see a visual representation of metal after each step in the rolling process where it gets smoother over time, but never perfectly smooth.
In a chain we see about a 0.6 micron RZ. This means there is more or less a .6 micron difference between the top and bottom of those peaks on the metal. The real beauty of wax based lube is that wax will do a great job of filling in those gaps to reduce friction, but when we add Tungsten Disulfide to our lubricant it takes this effect to another level. The WS2 (tungsten disulfide) that we use is about .6 microns as well. This allows the WS2 to fill in the imperfections of the metal at the same size as the imperfections. It creates just about the most perfect surface finish possible. Now the surfaces that are rubbing together are an ultra low friction WS2 rather than two imperfect metal surfaces.
When we use these friction modifiers like WS2 we are permanently or semi-permanently changing the surface of the metal. This is the real secret sauce in our Super Secret Chain lube and why our lubricants work so well to reduce friction and wear in your drivetrain.
Surface Finish
We talked about the importance of how smooth the surface of the pin and inner plates are to reduce the friction between them. One of the interesting things about materials science is that there is no such thing as perfectly smooth, perfectly round, etc. Steel chains are rolled steel that is first hot rolled, then cold rolled to get the metal to the specified thickness. While it looks very smooth to the naked eye, all metal surfaces have imperfections, and we measure them by their peaks and valleys or RZ value.
Chain Surface
Here we see a visual representation of metal after each step in the rolling process where it gets smoother over time, but never perfectly smooth.
In a chain we see about a 0.6 micron RZ. This means there is more or less a .6 micron difference between the top and bottom of those peaks on the metal. The real beauty of wax based lube is that wax will do a great job of filling in those gaps to reduce friction, but when we add Tungsten Disulfide to our lubricant it takes this effect to another level. The WS2 (tungsten disulfide) that we use is about .6 microns as well. This allows the WS2 to fill in the imperfections of the metal at the same size as the imperfections. It creates just about the most perfect surface finish possible. Now the surfaces that are rubbing together are an ultra low friction WS2 rather than two imperfect metal surfaces.
When we use these friction modifiers like WS2 we are permanently or semi-permanently changing the surface of the metal. This is the real secret sauce in our Super Secret Chain lube and why our lubricants work so well to reduce friction and wear in your drivetrain.
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I think I'm going to try adding tungsten disulfide (WS2) to the Gulf Wax. I found a 0.5 micron product on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/MICROLUBROL-TUNG ... r_hp_atf_m). I found a MSDS sheet of a commercial chain additive, along with another which shows the amount. They seem to be adding about a half ounce of WS2 per pound of wax (~12g WS2 / 500g Wax). Based on that ratio, It would be about $6-10 USD additional depending on what quantity I buy.
Outside of the darkening of the wax, unless I'm mistaken, I don't see any downside outside of wasting a few $'s.
Outside of the darkening of the wax, unless I'm mistaken, I don't see any downside outside of wasting a few $'s.
Similar here. However the bottom of the wax puck is noticeably grubbier than the rest after two or three waxing cycles. I now trim away the bottom 1-2mm of wax and add 30g or so fresh each time (if I remember). For context, I boil-wash chains (chuck in bucket with kettle full of boiling water and agitate vigorously) prior to rewaxing - no degreasing after the initial prep.TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:11 pmMy plain paraffin wax turns a light-medium gray...I wouldn't call it a dark gray.kenjif wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:57 pmI'm trying hot waxing after a groupset upgrade, with food grade paraffin melted in a silicon bag.
I rotate three chains (Sram Force AXS), that were degreased with UFO clean. I used them about 650 km each, mainly in dry conditions.
Today I re-applied hot wax for the first time the three used chains, after an immersion in boiling water to remove some black gunk. I was surprised that the wax turned dark grey after the three baths, even after it solidifies. Is it something I should expect ? I did not find a lot of pictures of what should look used plain wax, as many waxes from bike brands are black. Should I use a degreaser next time, to remove more of the black gunk before wax immersion ?
Thanks, I don't post any picture since the picture color is not the 'real' color of the wax.FishNo6 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:48 pmSimilar here. However the bottom of the wax puck is noticeably grubbier than the rest after two or three waxing cycles. I now trim away the bottom 1-2mm of wax and add 30g or so fresh each time (if I remember). For context, I boil-wash chains (chuck in bucket with kettle full of boiling water and agitate vigorously) prior to rewaxing - no degreasing after the initial prep.TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:11 pmMy plain paraffin wax turns a light-medium gray...I wouldn't call it a dark gray.
I noticed too that large black particles settled down in the bag, I will trim that part for the next batch.
This may have been mentioned previously, but this is a good article on waxing: https://www.cyclingtips.com/2020/08/how ... dless-faq/
Have not tried chain waxing, but wanted to give it a try. Have a few questions though:
1. Is it doable/recommended on MTB bikes?
2. Does stripping lube and waxing affects bling XX1 chain on MTB (well and recently released Force/Red too)?
3. Is there a consensus about good kit/wax to start with? I assume I'll have to clean some two chains being used and strip factory lube off brand new chains.
1. Is it doable/recommended on MTB bikes?
2. Does stripping lube and waxing affects bling XX1 chain on MTB (well and recently released Force/Red too)?
3. Is there a consensus about good kit/wax to start with? I assume I'll have to clean some two chains being used and strip factory lube off brand new chains.
His: Orbea Orca OMX
Hers: Cannondale Synapse HM Disc
Hers: Cannondale Synapse HM Disc
I've used drip on wax. In my opinion, it doesn't last long for mtb use in dusty conditions. I've had to reapply often, but it's still better than wet lubes. Immersive wax would probably last longer.TLN wrote:Have not tried chain waxing, but wanted to give it a try. Have a few questions though:
1. Is it doable/recommended on MTB bikes?
2. Does stripping lube and waxing affects bling XX1 chain on MTB (well and recently released Force/Red too)?
3. Is there a consensus about good kit/wax to start with? I assume I'll have to clean some two chains being used and strip factory lube off brand new chains.
I'm planning to do immersive. Already found small crockpot, plus I have three bikes in household: 2 road and MTB
His: Orbea Orca OMX
Hers: Cannondale Synapse HM Disc
Hers: Cannondale Synapse HM Disc
1. The main benefit for me is cleanliness of the drive train, so no more horrible oily crap to wash off the bike and your hands. If you're riding in mainly dry conditions this translates to increased component life as waxed chains don't attract dirt like oils do. Efficiency gains through lower friction is another bonus but of less importance to me personally. All of this is transferable to MTB unless you're constantly riding in wet conditions where wax can get washed out of chains fairly quickly.TLN wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 5:31 pmHave not tried chain waxing, but wanted to give it a try. Have a few questions though:
1. Is it doable/recommended on MTB bikes?
2. Does stripping lube and waxing affects bling XX1 chain on MTB (well and recently released Force/Red too)?
3. Is there a consensus about good kit/wax to start with? I assume I'll have to clean some two chains being used and strip factory lube off brand new chains.
2. I've just stripped and waxed a new SRAM Red AXS Rainbow chain and it looks much the same, but perhaps with less sheen (see below).
3. If you're talking about immersion waxing, then plain (food grade) paraffin is a good place to start, or Molten Speed Wax if you want to pay for a wax optimised with additives. For stripping chains, I use a 3 step method, shaking in turns in containers with white spirit, degreaser and alcohol, but UFO Clean seems to be an effective all-in-one solution. For drip on wax, UFO Drip is highly regarded. For other products and methods see the Zero Friction Cycling site.
Last edited by bobones on Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.
JLiukkonen wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:53 am
Update on Rex Black Diamond hot wax
We start deliveries on week 3/2023 and start taking preorders soon. We have been waiting confirmation from ZFC before we make the final recipe. Now I think we are on the safe side even Adam haven't got time to run throuht the whole test protocol. As TobinhatesYou mentioned the problem is contamination of the wax over time. Rex Black Diamond Hot Wax comes in box that contains 11 "base wax" blocks and one "race wax" block that contains all the insoluble additives. User can choose whether they mix the 1 race wax block in the 11 base wax. In that case you get high performance wax blend. That's the easy option and working methods are same as hot waxing is used at the moment. Second option is that you mix the Race wax block with 4 base wax blocks. There you get the optimal wax-to-additives ratio and performance. With the remaining base blocks we recommend it to be used for first hot waxing for the chain and after that you wax the chain with the race blend. This saves the race blend from contamination.
What is the status with your wax?
Sent an email to JLuikkonen a couple weeks back, and he replied to me like so (27/02):Lakal wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:03 pmJLiukkonen wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:53 am
Update on Rex Black Diamond hot wax
We start deliveries on week 3/2023 and start taking preorders soon. We have been waiting confirmation from ZFC before we make the final recipe. Now I think we are on the safe side even Adam haven't got time to run throuht the whole test protocol. As TobinhatesYou mentioned the problem is contamination of the wax over time. Rex Black Diamond Hot Wax comes in box that contains 11 "base wax" blocks and one "race wax" block that contains all the insoluble additives. User can choose whether they mix the 1 race wax block in the 11 base wax. In that case you get high performance wax blend. That's the easy option and working methods are same as hot waxing is used at the moment. Second option is that you mix the Race wax block with 4 base wax blocks. There you get the optimal wax-to-additives ratio and performance. With the remaining base blocks we recommend it to be used for first hot waxing for the chain and after that you wax the chain with the race blend. This saves the race blend from contamination.
What is the status with your wax?
"Hi ***,
we have everything ok to go for product launch. Just one minor check where we want to be 100% sure, also as a ski wax company we have winter time always really busy season. I predict that we have product launch in couple of week."
I'd surmise we're a few days from release now.
Some general questions:
Why do people wax in general? Ive looked at the data, and even assuming that ZFF is still oeprating indepently (which I highly doubt when CeramicSpeed Products suddenly are the hottest stuff since sliced bread for both wax and cleaning), all wattage gains are within testing error?
Dont get me wrong I wax my chains as well, but mostly for a clean drivetrain and reduced wear.
Why do people wax in general? Ive looked at the data, and even assuming that ZFF is still oeprating indepently (which I highly doubt when CeramicSpeed Products suddenly are the hottest stuff since sliced bread for both wax and cleaning), all wattage gains are within testing error?
Dont get me wrong I wax my chains as well, but mostly for a clean drivetrain and reduced wear.
Tungsten Disulfide is an amazing material. This stuff is used in high end grease, you'll find it in sealed gear systems where the WS2 will smooth out the gear teeth.MrStop wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:07 pmI think I'm going to try adding tungsten disulfide (WS2) to the Gulf Wax. I found a 0.5 micron product on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/MICROLUBROL-TUNG ... r_hp_atf_m). I found a MSDS sheet of a commercial chain additive, along with another which shows the amount. They seem to be adding about a half ounce of WS2 per pound of wax (~12g WS2 / 500g Wax). Based on that ratio, It would be about $6-10 USD additional depending on what quantity I buy.
Outside of the darkening of the wax, unless I'm mistaken, I don't see any downside outside of wasting a few $'s.
I use the Silca SS Hot Melt and don't mind the darkness of the WS2 at all. But as the other person mentioned when working with this stuff in powder form you need to be really careful to not breath it in. Please wear a mask!!!
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So one should worry and act carefully by wearing a mask only when in powder, no worries when in melted or solid form?AnthonyE wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:35 pmTungsten Disulfide is an amazing material. This stuff is used in high end grease, you'll find it in sealed gear systems where the WS2 will smooth out the gear teeth.MrStop wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:07 pmI think I'm going to try adding tungsten disulfide (WS2) to the Gulf Wax. I found a 0.5 micron product on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/MICROLUBROL-TUNG ... r_hp_atf_m). I found a MSDS sheet of a commercial chain additive, along with another which shows the amount. They seem to be adding about a half ounce of WS2 per pound of wax (~12g WS2 / 500g Wax). Based on that ratio, It would be about $6-10 USD additional depending on what quantity I buy.
Outside of the darkening of the wax, unless I'm mistaken, I don't see any downside outside of wasting a few $'s.
I use the Silca SS Hot Melt and don't mind the darkness of the WS2 at all. But as the other person mentioned when working with this stuff in powder form you need to be really careful to not breath it in. Please wear a mask!!!