My adventures in chain waxing: goals, reviews, suggestions...

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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12458
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

MagicShite wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:36 am

so much this...lol

Apparently it's $165/300g in the US. Still, $165 buys more than 5 years worth of Gulf wax if I partition out 300g at a time and toss it every. single. month.

JLiukkonen
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 11:36 am
Location: Finland
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by JLiukkonen

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:57 pm
blaugrana wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:14 pm
Silca just released a new wax with a claimed 0.5W saving over their existing hot melt wax. Also 200€ for 300g, this is not a typo. Not that I would even consider it if it was a third of the price, but it would be interesting to know if it actually works better, or if it's just a sequel to the sealant fiasco.

The problem with molten wax treatments is contamination of the wax pot over time. For $200, I can buy 23kg of Gulf brand paraffin and swap out the wax every couple months and it would likely result in similar efficiency just because the wax is cleaner.

Now you we could discuss filtering out contaminants in the various commercial wax products, but any such filtration would also attract the lubricious solids.

I will continue to use plain paraffin with UFO Drip top-ups.
Update on Rex Black Diamond hot wax

We start deliveries on week 3/2023 and start taking preorders soon. We have been waiting confirmation from ZFC before we make the final recipe. Now I think we are on the safe side even Adam haven't got time to run throuht the whole test protocol. As TobinhatesYou mentioned the problem is contamination of the wax over time. Rex Black Diamond Hot Wax comes in box that contains 11 "base wax" blocks and one "race wax" block that contains all the insoluble additives. User can choose whether they mix the 1 race wax block in the 11 base wax. In that case you get high performance wax blend. That's the easy option and working methods are same as hot waxing is used at the moment. Second option is that you mix the Race wax block with 4 base wax blocks. There you get the optimal wax-to-additives ratio and performance. With the remaining base blocks we recommend it to be used for first hot waxing for the chain and after that you wax the chain with the race blend. This saves the race blend from contamination.
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Screenshot 2022-11-23 at 10.48.19.png
www.rex.fi/en/bike

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Simon430
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:56 pm

by Simon430

What is the general consesus regarding reusing quick links? Would like to try waxing but put off by the idea of using a new quick link each time. I know there's the KMC one which is meant to be reusable a few times. Do people just buy a few spare quick links and change them out each time they re wax their chain?

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12458
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Simon430 wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:31 am
What is the general consesus regarding reusing quick links? Would like to try waxing but put off by the idea of using a new quick link each time. I know there's the KMC one which is meant to be reusable a few times. Do people just buy a few spare quick links and change them out each time they re wax their chain?
Use it until it no longer has a discernible snap when you close it. Or just buy a Connex chain (if 11-speed or lower) and reuse that link forever. For the most part the Connex link will not wear out because the loaded sliding bits are the rollers and the the shoulders on the inner plates.

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C36
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Regarding fresh wax contamination by the “old” one. I don’t see how it will happen if you properly “dewax” the chain (i drop the chains in large amount of boiled water, that removes all the wax that was exposed to elements).

I get it’s an extra step over the simple “drop the chain in the wax and let the contamination dilute in the fresh wax. But usually by the time the wax is melted my chains have been cleaned.
Last edited by C36 on Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

Prankman
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:06 am

by Prankman

Have you tried any of Silca's new hot wax with graphene?
Could you give your experience?:

https://silcavelo.eu/products/silca-hot ... %3D.SMHxdB

S1inker
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:10 am

by S1inker

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:13 pm
C36 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:59 pm
Their current wax works fantastic and is 40€ for 500g. More than the 0.5W gain, the 2+ x durability (800km in dry conditions ?) would be the main upgrade… but I will wait ZFC test to confirm. In all cases 200€ for 300g seems too high for real world use.

ZFC also tested the newer MSW as lower wearing than the original Silca Hot Melt in all but the last, most extreme contamination block. Considering that block is equivalent to riding through a sand shower, I kinda dismiss it as I will never encounter those conditions.
Do you know if ZFC published anything about it? I can't seem to find anything apart from the 2017 review and I see no mention of the updated version inside.

Lakal
Posts: 192
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:20 pm

by Lakal

You can just open the lubricant testing file: https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/lubetesting/

Erlandal
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:36 am

by Erlandal

JLiukkonen wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:53 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:57 pm
blaugrana wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:14 pm
Silca just released a new wax with a claimed 0.5W saving over their existing hot melt wax. Also 200€ for 300g, this is not a typo. Not that I would even consider it if it was a third of the price, but it would be interesting to know if it actually works better, or if it's just a sequel to the sealant fiasco.

The problem with molten wax treatments is contamination of the wax pot over time. For $200, I can buy 23kg of Gulf brand paraffin and swap out the wax every couple months and it would likely result in similar efficiency just because the wax is cleaner.

Now you we could discuss filtering out contaminants in the various commercial wax products, but any such filtration would also attract the lubricious solids.

I will continue to use plain paraffin with UFO Drip top-ups.
Update on Rex Black Diamond hot wax

We start deliveries on week 3/2023 and start taking preorders soon. We have been waiting confirmation from ZFC before we make the final recipe. Now I think we are on the safe side even Adam haven't got time to run throuht the whole test protocol. As TobinhatesYou mentioned the problem is contamination of the wax over time. Rex Black Diamond Hot Wax comes in box that contains 11 "base wax" blocks and one "race wax" block that contains all the insoluble additives. User can choose whether they mix the 1 race wax block in the 11 base wax. In that case you get high performance wax blend. That's the easy option and working methods are same as hot waxing is used at the moment. Second option is that you mix the Race wax block with 4 base wax blocks. There you get the optimal wax-to-additives ratio and performance. With the remaining base blocks we recommend it to be used for first hot waxing for the chain and after that you wax the chain with the race blend. This saves the race blend from contamination.
Great stuff, I'll wait for the release and will start my waxing adventure with your product I think.

What's the race block purpose exactly? Is it just a way to get a more efficient chain?
Also, what about price? Can we expect something in the ballpark of Silca's Hot Melt or MSW?

MikeD
Posts: 1000
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Simon430 wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:31 am
What is the general consesus regarding reusing quick links? Would like to try waxing but put off by the idea of using a new quick link each time. I know there's the KMC one which is meant to be reusable a few times. Do people just buy a few spare quick links and change them out each time they re wax their chain?
Use it until it no longer has a discernible snap when you close it. Or just buy a Connex chain (if 11-speed or lower) and reuse that link forever. For the most part the Connex link will not wear out because the loaded sliding bits are the rollers and the the shoulders on the inner plates.
No, the pins wear out too.

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C36
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

@S1inker,
All the tests are here
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp-c ... er-22.xlsx

As of now MS New formula leads the wear test in front of Silca (wax), Effetto Mariposa (drips) and Ceramic Speed UFO (Drips). Need to look at the data for more details, depending of your riding conditions, other products also reach the maximum "virtual chain lifespan" (Rex if you ride in dry clean conditions for example).

For durability, Rex is leading by a massive difference (way north 1000km), MS reaching 600km and Silca 430.

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eurperg
Posts: 936
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 10:32 am
Location: Finland

by eurperg

Erlandal wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:36 pm
What's the race block purpose exactly? Is it just a way to get a more efficient chain?
Also, what about price? Can we expect something in the ballpark of Silca's Hot Melt or MSW?
The Rex wax box contains 12 wax blocks. The 1 black block contains the "Black Diamond" additives and is melted together with either 4 white blocks for ZFC record-breaking "ultra endurance" blend, or with 11 blocks for "everyday high performance" blend. Even the 1+11 blend is way ahead of MSW and Silca's test results in ZFC Single Application Longevity test, but the 1+4 blend is even farther ahead with its result of 5000 km's to wear allowance limit.

Melting the 1 black additives block with 4 white blocks leaves 7 blocks to be used a a cleaning / pre-pre wax. Even if a chain has been boiled in water for a while, it will leave visible contamination when it it put in white pre-prep wax. Using the 2-step waxing with 7 white blocks ensures that the 1+4 wax stays clean in use. And staying clean means staying high performance. To put it shortly: If you want to keep it simple, just melt all and use it like Silca and MSW. But if you want the best possible performance, use the 2-step method. Keeping the additives in a separate block also ensures lab-grade production quality in mass production.

The price of a 480 gram package will be sightly above Silca's Hot Melt but still way below their new wax.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12458
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

MikeD wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:48 pm

No, the pins wear out too.

And so do the outer plates. But it takes years of high mileage riding.

mrlobber
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:36 am
Location: Where the permanent autumn is

by mrlobber

eurperg wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:30 pm
The price of a 480 gram package will be sightly above Silca's Hot Melt but still way below their new wax.
When is this stuff going to be available?
Minimum bike categories required in the stable:
Aero bike | GC bike | GC rim bike | Climbing bike | Climbing rim bike | Classics bike | Gravel bike | TT bike | Indoors bike

Erlandal
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:36 am

by Erlandal

eurperg wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:30 pm
Erlandal wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:36 pm
What's the race block purpose exactly? Is it just a way to get a more efficient chain?
Also, what about price? Can we expect something in the ballpark of Silca's Hot Melt or MSW?
The Rex wax box contains 12 wax blocks. The 1 black block contains the "Black Diamond" additives and is melted together with either 4 white blocks for ZFC record-breaking "ultra endurance" blend, or with 11 blocks for "everyday high performance" blend. Even the 1+11 blend is way ahead of MSW and Silca's test results in ZFC Single Application Longevity test, but the 1+4 blend is even farther ahead with its result of 5000 km's to wear allowance limit.

Melting the 1 black additives block with 4 white blocks leaves 7 blocks to be used a a cleaning / pre-pre wax. Even if a chain has been boiled in water for a while, it will leave visible contamination when it it put in white pre-prep wax. Using the 2-step waxing with 7 white blocks ensures that the 1+4 wax stays clean in use. And staying clean means staying high performance. To put it shortly: If you want to keep it simple, just melt all and use it like Silca and MSW. But if you want the best possible performance, use the 2-step method. Keeping the additives in a separate block also ensures lab-grade production quality in mass production.

The price of a 480 gram package will be sightly above Silca's Hot Melt but still way below their new wax.
Thanks for the information.
I don't think I'm ready yet to get two slow cookers just for this application, so I'll probably just go 11+1 directly, but it does sound really promising.
mrlobber wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:37 pm
eurperg wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 5:30 pm
The price of a 480 gram package will be sightly above Silca's Hot Melt but still way below their new wax.
When is this stuff going to be available?
Week 3 of 2023 apparently.

by Weenie


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Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

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