Ultegra & Dura Ace chains barely elongated after ~3500 miles (5600 km)

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DaveS
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Location: Loveland Colorado

by DaveS

mpulsiv wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:34 am
DaveS wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:39 pm
Any tool that adds roller wear into the measurement exaggerates the elongation.

True elongation is best measured with a precision 12 inch rule.

A Campy chain can show little elongation after 6,000 miles, but if you check the roller wear and side clearance you'll find that it should have been tossed at half that mileage. Even with little elongation, using a chain for that long will cause new-chain skip.

Here you go :beerchug:
~3500 miles (5600 km) later with KMC digital chain checker showing 0.30mm

Image
That's step number one. A Campy chain will also measure very little elongation, even after 6,000 miles. The problem is that at that point, the rollers will be extemely worn and the side clearances huge. Most of the wear on the roller is within the holes. I made a roller spacing gauge from a 6mm hex wrench, ground to a width that will allow the 6mm wide flats to slip between the outer plates. If that gage ever goes through, your cassette is probably worn enough to cause new-chain skip, despite the low elongation. Calipers can be used to measure when the space between rollers increases by .5-.75mm.

I use several chains in a rotation, to avoid new-chain skip, rather than having to guess at when to trash a chain.

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mpulsiv
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by mpulsiv

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:28 am
I used to use R&R Gold. But after switching to wax anything else besides wax is just plain disgusting! When I work on friends' bikes I'm amazed at how disgusting a drivetrain is when lubed with a drip lube.

Sent from my KFMAWI using Tapatalk
What wax did you settle on? Yes, Rock 'n' Roll Gold is greasy but it's so easy to wipe and reapply. However, chemical smell is nasty.
I was looking at wax drip lube. No intention to take off my chains for Molten SpeedWax.
Don't care about longevity but rather looking for slick wipe off and apply method. I'd like to avoid anything gunky.
https://silca.cc/products/silca-super-secret-chain-lube
www.squirtcyclingproducts.com/product/squirt-chain-lube
https://wendperformance.com/buy-online/ ... iquid-lube
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/product/smoove-lube

Image
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alanyu
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by alanyu

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:20 pm
alanyu wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:59 pm

That doesn't mean roller wear doesn't count anyway and you can find a lot of web, papers, etc on roller wear such as https://www.diamondchain.com/understanding-wear-life/

That page just says roller wear occurs. That's a given. The point you continually ignore is that the wear does. not. matter. in the context of functionality, only structural integrity.
So you want a scientific paper on the function effect? I can easily find a lot of papers on this topic.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... on_fitness
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en ... ller-chain
Last edited by alanyu on Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MikeD
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Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

GeoffS wrote:Nope. Roller wear has no impact on pin-to-pin spacing which is what controls the load transfer between chain and chainring. I was going to make a sketch to illustrate this, but because I'm lazy, suggest reading the following instead.

http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-004/000.html
"Measuring Wear
The important issue of chain wear is that the spacing changes, causing the chain to ride up on the sprocket teeth. Thus, it is important to measure pin/bushing wear. However, bushing/roller wear does not affect chain performance unless it becomes so severe that it affects structural integrity — the bearing is worn away, the roller fractures, or the like. Thus, bushing/roller wear should not be included in overall wear measurements.
"
I agree, but you might as well give up. It's a myth that won't die as long as they sell those chain checkers that include roller clearance/wear. Since roller clearance is a non-standardized measurement among chain manufacturers and chain pitch is, just what is too much roller clearance/wear anyway?

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

alanyu wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:52 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:20 pm
alanyu wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:59 pm

That doesn't mean roller wear doesn't count anyway and you can find a lot of web, papers, etc on roller wear such as https://www.diamondchain.com/understanding-wear-life/

That page just says roller wear occurs. That's a given. The point you continually ignore is that the wear does. not. matter. in the context of functionality, only structural integrity.
So you want a scientific paper on the function effect? I can easily find a lot of papers on this topic.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... on_fitness
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en ... ller-chain

It seems like you just searched for "roller" and "wear" and came up with random papers that broadly discuss wear on "roller chains." Drivetrain issues occur with elongation. Roller wear does not result in elongation. Give up.

alanyu
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Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:19 pm
alanyu wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:52 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:20 pm
alanyu wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:59 pm

That doesn't mean roller wear doesn't count anyway and you can find a lot of web, papers, etc on roller wear such as https://www.diamondchain.com/understanding-wear-life/

That page just says roller wear occurs. That's a given. The point you continually ignore is that the wear does. not. matter. in the context of functionality, only structural integrity.
So you want a scientific paper on the function effect? I can easily find a lot of papers on this topic.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... on_fitness
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en ... ller-chain

It seems like you just searched for "roller" and "wear" and came up with random papers that broadly discuss wear on "roller chains." Drivetrain issues occur with elongation. Roller wear does not result in elongation. Give up.
It seems like you read the title and think ok it is like this I give up.

Several sentences in the paper:

The effect of wear on a roller chain is to increase the spacing of the links, causing the chain to grow longer. Note that this is not from any actual stretching of any metal, as too many engineers and mechanics intuitively believe but is due to the effect of wear at the pivoting parts. It could be said that the roller chain loosens with wear. After a long period of running time the pitch of the chain increases uniformly which results in an increase in the length of the chain.

A lubricant-starved chain drive shows a brownish or rusty coloration around the joints and in the roller-bushing areas when the link is disassembled and the pin inspected. The normal highly polished surface of the pin will have deteriorated to a roughened, grooved, or galled surface that can eventually destroy the hardened surfaces of the chain parts and increase wear until the drive is completely destroyed. This also will be true if a lubricant that does not meet the chain's technical specifications is used.

First paragraph teaches you what the wear of the pivoting parts, rollers, will do. The second paragraph teaches you, lube, actually protects the wear of the joint and roller aera, not elongation of the plate.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Roller chain does not mean roller. They are talking generally about elongation (happening at the pin/plate interface.)

Roller wear itself does not cause elongation. Maybe this is a language barrier thing, but you are misinterpreting the literature.

alanyu
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Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

Can't you read carefully that in the text it is "wear at the pivoting parts" and "joints and roller-bushing aeras"?

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Come on man, wear is wear, elongation is elongation. Whether rollers wear is not being debated. Whether roller wear contributes to elongation seems to be your hang up. Don’t be dumb.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

mpulsiv wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:50 pm
Don't care about longevity but rather looking for slick wipe off and apply method. I'd like to avoid anything gunky.
I go 400 miles between rewaxing. It doesn't get easier than that (no need to wipe the chain like R&R Gold). And I have several chains in rotation. That's the beauty of wax.

alanyu
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by alanyu

You just don't want to go through the papers and insist on your idea without support. :noidea:
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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

Of course roller wear should count. If the rollers become smaller and thinner, the contact points move higher up on the cog/chainring. If you look at your roller to cog contact points under pressure, the point of contact doesn't align with the centerline of the pin, but rather offset. This offset will increase with roller wear even if elongation remains the same.

DaveS
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Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:26 pm
Location: Loveland Colorado

by DaveS

Wear at the ID of the roller is 20-30 times greater than the OD, based on my autopsy of a campy 10 chain, years ago. Mixing elongation (change in pitch) measurements with roller wear is pointless. Each should be measured separately. The space between rollers can easily increase by 10-20% as the elongation grows by .5% or less.

Unfortunately, there is no magic formula when it comes to figuring out when to trash a chain. Cheap KMC chains elongate quickly, so elongation measurements may be adequate. The opposite is true with a Campy chain, where .5% true elongation may never occur, even when roller spacing has increased by 15%.

That's one reason I use several chains in a rotation. I never have to worry about a new chain being introduced to a well worn cassette.
Last edited by DaveS on Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

The clauses you linked are saying articulation increases with chain wear because the rollers are being displaced outward causing the plates to sit at a closer radius to the gears and also that spacing increases if pushed in opposing directions. All true. Once again, no one is denying that roller wear exists, and no one is disputing that it can’t accelerate overall chain wear with the increased articulation. What it doesn’t do is count toward measures elongation of a chain or cause noticeable adverse gear engagement.

If you want a practical demonstration, remove all the rollers from a chain, install it on a bike and ride. It will work.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

All I'm saying is that one cannot discount roller wear. If you only measure elongation the chain will eventually cause accelerated wear on other components and increase drivetrain inefficiency before that chain is tossed out. I know some chain checkers only check for elongation and I don't think that's a good idea.

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