Campagnolo 12sp chain on 11sp drivetrain

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joeyb1000
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:37 pm

by joeyb1000

To answer the OP. I tested it, and it works just fine. I don't think there is any change in noise or performance.

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kervelo
Posts: 866
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:58 am
Location: Finland

by kervelo

Has anyone mixed old 11sp with the new 12sp components? I am thinking of getting just the new Chorus 12sp shifters and derailleurs (and of course the cassette and chain) and keeping the old 11sp H11 crankset. I suppose that would be a fully working combination?

joeyb1000
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:37 pm

by joeyb1000

kervelo wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:40 pm
Has anyone mixed old 11sp with the new 12sp components? I am thinking of getting just the new Chorus 12sp shifters and derailleurs (and of course the cassette and chain) and keeping the old 11sp H11 crankset. I suppose that would be a fully working combination?
Yes. See the 12s thread for lots more info.

kervelo
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Location: Finland

by kervelo

Yes, I have read the thread, at least most of it. Because of the length of it, it is no longer very easy to find technical info or experiences from the posts. I understand that Campagnolo does not recommend mixing 11sp with 12sp, but I am looking for user experiences.

What I did find was that the 11sp H11 crankset is almost the same as the 12sp chorus; only the chainrings are different. But the chainring position is the same, so the 12sp chorus FD should work, if I am correct.

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Beaver
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:06 pm

by Beaver

c60rider wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:46 am
Why would you want to use a 12 speed chain on 11 speed??? :noidea:
Are you able to adjust your derailleur, so that the chain does not touch the upper or lower "neighbour" on all sprockets with a Campy setup?

With Shimano 11s cassette and 11s chain and SRAM Red mech. derailleur, that was quite impossible, tolerances were too low.

DaveS
Posts: 3922
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:26 pm
Location: Loveland Colorado

by DaveS

I would certainly try the 11 speed crank, if the rings are in good shape. I bought 12 speed cranks, only because I wanted the new 48/32. Just be sure to get the 12 speed FD. The new shifters will include the new maximum smoothness cables, that do improve shifting.

c60rider
Posts: 872
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:12 pm

by c60rider

Beaver wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:47 pm
c60rider wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:46 am
Why would you want to use a 12 speed chain on 11 speed??? :noidea:
Are you able to adjust your derailleur, so that the chain does not touch the upper or lower "neighbour" on all sprockets with a Campy setup?

With Shimano 11s cassette and 11s chain and SRAM Red mech. derailleur, that was quite impossible, tolerances were too low.
On my 11 speed setups and I have 2 post-2015 setups (1 disc and 1 rim) all gears work perfectly with no rubbing on the front mech on any extremes of cross chaining. So in that respect it's set up correctly. You can only adjust the rear derailleur so that it changes correctly on all sprockets in either large or small chainring. Beyond that it's impossible to adjust the space between sprockets which is what you appear to be implying with the chain potentially touching the neighbouring sprocket. If it does then what is the problem with that with an otherwise perfectly functioning setup? That's how it has been designed and manufactured. With finer and finer tolerances being engineered in to fit more sprockets within the same space you can only come up with compromises when the entire kit has been engineered to work together. Using a 12 speed chain on 11 speed chainrings? I'm guessing the gap between the plates of the chain are fractionally narrower so there must be more chance of the chain having increased friction on the chainrings as you now have less space than with an 11 speed chain.

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Beaver
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:06 pm

by Beaver

c60rider wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:32 pm
Beaver wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:47 pm
c60rider wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:46 am
Why would you want to use a 12 speed chain on 11 speed??? :noidea:
Are you able to adjust your derailleur, so that the chain does not touch the upper or lower "neighbour" on all sprockets with a Campy setup?

With Shimano 11s cassette and 11s chain and SRAM Red mech. derailleur, that was quite impossible, tolerances were too low.
On my 11 speed setups and I have 2 post-2015 setups (1 disc and 1 rim) all gears work perfectly with no rubbing on the front mech on any extremes of cross chaining. So in that respect it's set up correctly. You can only adjust the rear derailleur so that it changes correctly on all sprockets in either large or small chainring. Beyond that it's impossible to adjust the space between sprockets which is what you appear to be implying with the chain potentially touching the neighbouring sprocket. If it does then what is the problem with that with an otherwise perfectly functioning setup? That's how it has been designed and manufactured. With finer and finer tolerances being engineered in to fit more sprockets within the same space you can only come up with compromises when the entire kit has been engineered to work together. Using a 12 speed chain on 11 speed chainrings? I'm guessing the gap between the plates of the chain are fractionally narrower so there must be more chance of the chain having increased friction on the chainrings as you now have less space than with an 11 speed chain.
With my 11s chain and 11s cassette setup and the chain rubbing on the nearby sprocket there should have been more drag for sure (despite the noise). Yes, the chain is 0.2mm narrower but on the front rings I can't find and hear any difference, even with a crossed chain. The CN-M9100 chain has been optimized in that regard because of 1x drive trains though. But I can't confirm that it runs any better with a crossed chain than before.

If your setup is allright for you, that's great, it's just the rubbing chain on my setup that startled me.

Crossdrop
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:43 pm

by Crossdrop

Just to bring that up for a bit...

I just bought a 2nd Hand Colnago V2R. Wanted to buy it from a shop, but I was too late as it's discontinued. Thought about replacing the groupset from Campa 11s to 12s as I always dreamt about getting a bike with 12s, and apparently, if you dream of something, you just want it to be fulfilled.

Neverteheless, on this bike there's a Campa Comp Ultra 11s Crank mounted along with finest Ceramicspeed Bracket & Bearings. Thus I'm not really eager to replace the crankset as this would involve replacing the BB. So I'm thinking about replacing EVERYTHING BUT the crank. Shifters, Derailleurs, Sprocket, Chain. From everything I understand that would pretty much do it, correct? So 12s setup would run in that 11s crank?

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mortirolo
Posts: 166
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:08 am
Location: EU

by mortirolo

Crossdrop wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 3:25 pm
Just to bring that up for a bit...

"Campa Comp Ultra 11s Crank"

So 12s setup would run in that 11s crank?
+1
Marco Pantani - Momenti Di Gloria
AX Vial (SR11) <- FELT FC (Record 10) <- LOOK KX (Dura-Ace) <- Specialized EPIC (Superbe Pro)

ParisCarbon
Posts: 1918
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:39 am
Location: Winnipeg Canada

by ParisCarbon

Campy chains seem to last forever and can trick you into going longer than you should! I remember when I gave Di2 a shot I was nuking chains every other month...

At chainreaction I noticed that they boosted the cost of the Record 11s chain to $81 Canadian.. more expensive than the new 12s chain... but everyone else was still down around the standard $60 or so area...

Belisarius
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:36 pm

by Belisarius

bm0p700f wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:03 pm
DaveS I take care of my chains but 3000km maybe 4000 is the most I get. It not so much lack of care but load/the gear used. Those that spend alot of time in the small sprocket at the back (12/13t) wear chains at a faster rate. So less of the crap from you.

I can get 10000km from a chain (to what wear point though) therefore I am superior. This bullsit is not on.
3000 max. 700-900 kms brake in period noted. Elite level rider, pair them with SRAM Xi cassettes, impeccably maintained with the best oil in the world (and will not say what type nor is it a cycling oil). Basically, pushing 35-45 km/hr, sometimes even up 2% gradients 35-40 km hr, they do wear to the max indicated by Campagnolo. I suppose that if I rode at 25-30 km hr maybe I would get 5000. Either or, past 3000 the skipping starts, a chain flex and hesitation I feel at torque and speed. Used to swap 3400-3700 kms then realized that I was being penalized.

In contrast the prev gen dura aces lasted me 1-3 weeks , 500-900 kms before I considered them garbage,putrid metallurgy, so yes I ran shimano groupsets with SRAM cassettes and campy record chains on all bikes.

Then discovered that I needed to resolve the 53/39 rings every 10-15,000 kms, basically once as at 20,000 kms crank fatigue sets in (even Dura ace), a minute flex depriving me of 0.5 km / hr. So every 20,000 kms I need a new crankset, period. These days madness with supplies missing.

Ordered the new 12 speed shimano, cannot get the groupset nor the 54/40 I NEED for the new bikes, yes my main Italian 2014 bike is fatigues at 35,000 kms, a Columbus carbon, ordered colnago no groupset. Also ride a giant tcr, solid feel, more than the Italian but lacks personality and 1 km hr slower no matter identical builds...

As a 80 kg rider, high rpm high torque 53/39 and 11-28, campy record with the best oil 3000 kms before the exceed the campy spec, shimano, 500-800 kms at best. Rings 10-12k, crank 20-24k max...

I will try to pair the 5.15mm campy 12 with shimano 9270 but I was advised not to.

maxim809
Administrator
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:28 am

by maxim809

XCProMD wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:54 am
I once wrote a rant about the difference in thermal treatment and metallography between Campag chains and the others. Nobody gave a toss about it. Most here just assume Shimano does everything better because they’re Japanese, but if you try to present evidence of the contrary nobody reads.
link please am interested

MauriceBrocco
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:38 am

by MauriceBrocco

I got 11sp chainrings from TA Specialites on my Record 11 cranks. I ugpraded the rest of the bike to Record 12sp. I rode up a 20% incline yesterday and the chain skipped on the 36t inner ring. It doesn't happen on the big ring. Probably because the chain is engaging on more teeth. On the inner ring, I can just stand on the pedal when the bike stands still and the chain will skip. I'm using a 12sp Chorus chain. Brand new.
I will now replace the inner ring to SR 12sp and see if that fixes it.

Bobbyc123
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:40 am

by Bobbyc123

I think Graeme mentioned on another thread, while it might work, it could result in accelerated wear on chainrings and cassettes due to sizings not being optimal.

by Weenie


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