Are We Getting A New Cannondale Supersix?

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cerro
Posts: 1958
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by cerro

Those don't fit on top so need to add regular round spacers on top to get the headset tightened for testriding. Reasonable to do like that and test before cutting and shaving off some weight :)

LedZeppelin007
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Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:46 pm

by LedZeppelin007

I’ve been bombing the SSE4 thread for too long with my SSE3 stuff.

Long story short: bought a SSE4, thought it was fine, but the seatpost had huge gouges in it from the shop. The shop made it right and I decided to exchange it for a SSE3 Hi-Mod that was on sale.

Really like the bike so far, barring a few quibbles with the R8100 cassette.

I decided that I would support BBInfinite and get one of their PF30 BBs (I love those guys and they make great stuff). I pulled the OEM BB tonight using a press/cup (proper tools, no banging with a hammer). Inside, I found a bit of a mess with a strange brass piece sitting in there (part of the seatpost assembly?!), but more notably, splinters and delamination of the BB shell.

I’m not a Carbon expert, but I’m worried. I used my vernier calipers (really should use a specialist tool, but I don’t have that). I measure the BB cups that I pulled at bang on 46mm. The bike’s BB shell measured 73.06mm, within spec. The actual shell diameters? Per my (admittedly unscientific) measurements: 45.63 and 45.79mm. Which, is WAY out if accurate.

Pictures below. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

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by Weenie


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LedZeppelin007
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Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:46 pm

by LedZeppelin007

daninplymouth wrote:Finally got my first test ride in on my sse3. Quick question I am looking to lower the bars, would it be ok to remove 2 of the small spacers and use the bike for 100miles or so before I decide on cutting the steerer? Also if I do this would you put these back above the stem or should I fit some standard round spacers to fill the steerer tube up to to the top cap?
E771D6B4-315E-4F18-8C86-6E058755EA19.png
Yes. Use standard round spacers above the stem.


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Nereth
Posts: 250
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:18 am

by Nereth

45.6-45.8 seems to be "check measurement tools, check measurement technique" levels of "out".

If both of those check out - warranty. It's around an order of magnitude outside of permissible deviation from mean.

viewtopic.php?t=146680&start=15

LedZeppelin007
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:46 pm

by LedZeppelin007

Nereth wrote:45.6-45.8 seems to be "check measurement tools, check measurement technique" levels of "out".

If both of those check out - warranty. It's around an order of magnitude outside of permissible deviation from mean.

viewtopic.php?t=146680&start=15
What did you think about the chipping/splintering on the inside of the shell?

The issue is that I just don’t have/have access to the tool to definitively say whether it’s out: an inside micrometer. They’re like $1000. I wonder if bike shops typically have them.


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trex
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:42 pm
Location: Catalonia

by trex

That's a part of internal wedge (see fig. "3").

And regarding the looks of the BB - for me it's an immediate contact with LBS and replacement of this frame. An obvious damage.
Attachments
wedge.jpg

Nereth
Posts: 250
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:18 am

by Nereth

Chipped carbon from forcing in the bb in the first place.

You should be able to measure an ID within 0.05mm with calipers used correctly. That's not a problem here.

Try to measure the ID of a bearing to check your caliper calibration and technique. The smaller the ID the larger the geometric errors will be (will always err towards small with ID measurements with a caliper.)

LedZeppelin007
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:46 pm

by LedZeppelin007

Nereth wrote:Chipped carbon from forcing in the bb in the first place.

You should be able to measure an ID within 0.05mm with calipers used correctly. That's not a problem here.

Try to measure the ID of a bearing to check your caliper calibration and technique. The smaller the ID the larger the geometric errors will be (will always err towards small with ID measurements with a caliper.)
Good plan. I practiced on a 30mm ID bearing and got it down pretty well. Took several other measurements of both sides of the shell. Those varied from 45.89mm to 45.53mm. Not surprisingly, the narrowest part is where the damage is located.


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CharlieDG
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:39 pm

by CharlieDG

I have a second hand SS3 Hi-Mod EF Rapha edition. It's the 2022 season model so I believe it will have the metal stop in the steerer rather than the earlier editions which didn't have this. So far I have had no issues with the steerer stop. My questions are- will this frame actually have the metal stop and will this prevent any potential damage to the frame? Also- as a second hand bike, if there were to be any issues from this steerer stop, would I have warranty options?

LedZeppelin007
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Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:46 pm

by LedZeppelin007

CharlieDG wrote:I have a second hand SS3 Hi-Mod EF Rapha edition. It's the 2022 season model so I believe it will have the metal stop in the steerer rather than the earlier editions which didn't have this. So far I have had no issues with the steerer stop. My questions are- will this frame actually have the metal stop and will this prevent any potential damage to the frame? Also- as a second hand bike, if there were to be any issues from this steerer stop, would I have warranty options?
I think the metal stops have been effective and it should have them. Warranty only applies to first owner.


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LedZeppelin007
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Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:46 pm

by LedZeppelin007

Nereth wrote:Chipped carbon from forcing in the bb in the first place.

You should be able to measure an ID within 0.05mm with calipers used correctly. That's not a problem here.

Try to measure the ID of a bearing to check your caliper calibration and technique. The smaller the ID the larger the geometric errors will be (will always err towards small with ID measurements with a caliper.)
Stopped by the local shop who tried to tell me the damage was probably from my pulling the BB. When I told them that wasn’t possible given the inner sleeve to the BB and the fact that I used a press, they seemed stumped. Seemed to think Cannondale will give me a hard time for removing the BB myself. Dear lord.

Pretty sure I’m never going to buy or recommend a Cannondale product again in my life.


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Nereth
Posts: 250
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:18 am

by Nereth

Doesn't matter if the damage was caused by pulling the BB. Those tolerances are insane (if measured accurately). On that basis, it's a warranty job even if the damage wasn't there. This is not "process variation/drift left for a little too long without correction" this is "something went horribly horribly wrong on manufacture of this frame" (assuming Cdale are not purposefully targeting that size, in which case it might be OK - check another S6evo3 to be sure).

I'm in Australia and we have good consumer protections, so, if you've measured accurately, and if the tolerances Cdale target really are the official BB30 tolerances, then in my case I'd be 100% confident by the end of the argument I'd have that frame replaced, even if I have to torch my relationship with the shop and cannondale both, as I wouldn't want that frame at all .

Having said that, that's the bridge-burning response, and not necessarily the argument you want to take in there in the first instance.

Does it say anywhere in any cannondale documentation that a consumer should not or shall not remove their own BB? The fact that you already had your own press indicates to me you're more qualified to use it than a lot of new bike techs that might be using the shops press, that they're only seeing for the first time that day.

Bearing in mind, I have an S6evo3 Himod and I would purchase it again in a heartbeat. Best feeling (stiffness&comfort) bike I've owned and relatively drama free other than needing to face the rear brake mount. So I have no negative feelings for Cannondale.

Omiar
Posts: 385
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:20 pm

by Omiar

LedZeppelin007 wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:01 am
I’ve been bombing the SSE4 thread for too long with my SSE3 stuff.

Long story short: bought a SSE4, thought it was fine, but the seatpost had huge gouges in it from the shop. The shop made it right and I decided to exchange it for a SSE3 Hi-Mod that was on sale.

Really like the bike so far, barring a few quibbles with the R8100 cassette.

I decided that I would support BBInfinite and get one of their PF30 BBs (I love those guys and they make great stuff). I pulled the OEM BB tonight using a press/cup (proper tools, no banging with a hammer). Inside, I found a bit of a mess with a strange brass piece sitting in there (part of the seatpost assembly?!), but more notably, splinters and delamination of the BB shell.

I’m not a Carbon expert, but I’m worried. I used my vernier calipers (really should use a specialist tool, but I don’t have that). I measure the BB cups that I pulled at bang on 46mm. The bike’s BB shell measured 73.06mm, within spec. The actual shell diameters? Per my (admittedly unscientific) measurements: 45.63 and 45.79mm. Which, is WAY out if accurate.

Pictures below. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
...


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I've been throught this Cannondale bb mess. That BB shell looks like typical Cannondale level "quality" aka s??t.
The splinters don't matter much, because the inside is partly unsupported anyway and its the outer edge of the BB shell which carries the load.

If its undersized, then it is a problem but the vernier measurement look a bit off.
45,79 shell inside measurement would mean any BB installation would have cracked the frame if you used enough force to actually press the cup into frame.
You need at least a micrometer the measure the existing OEM BB. If that measures out within tolerance and came off the frame without feeling too loose or too stiff, then the shell is probably within tolerance. Depending on that result I would get the BB shell exactly measured and if it is undersized, use a automotive honing tool to hone it to spec.
Cannondale SystemSix R8170
Trek Checkpoint SL5 MY2022

Lina
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

Omiar wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:16 am
LedZeppelin007 wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:01 am
I’ve been bombing the SSE4 thread for too long with my SSE3 stuff.

Long story short: bought a SSE4, thought it was fine, but the seatpost had huge gouges in it from the shop. The shop made it right and I decided to exchange it for a SSE3 Hi-Mod that was on sale.

Really like the bike so far, barring a few quibbles with the R8100 cassette.

I decided that I would support BBInfinite and get one of their PF30 BBs (I love those guys and they make great stuff). I pulled the OEM BB tonight using a press/cup (proper tools, no banging with a hammer). Inside, I found a bit of a mess with a strange brass piece sitting in there (part of the seatpost assembly?!), but more notably, splinters and delamination of the BB shell.

I’m not a Carbon expert, but I’m worried. I used my vernier calipers (really should use a specialist tool, but I don’t have that). I measure the BB cups that I pulled at bang on 46mm. The bike’s BB shell measured 73.06mm, within spec. The actual shell diameters? Per my (admittedly unscientific) measurements: 45.63 and 45.79mm. Which, is WAY out if accurate.

Pictures below. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I've been throught this Cannondale bb mess. That BB shell looks like typical Cannondale level "quality" aka s??t.
The splinters don't matter much, because the inside is partly unsupported anyway and its the outer edge of the BB shell which carries the load.

If its undersized, then it is a problem but the vernier measurement look a bit off.
45,79 shell inside measurement would mean any BB installation would have cracked the frame if you used enough force to actually press the cup into frame.
You need at least a micrometer the measure the existing OEM BB. If that measures out within tolerance and came off the frame without feeling too loose or too stiff, then the shell is probably within tolerance. Depending on that result I would get the BB shell exactly measured and if it is undersized, use a automotive honing tool to hone it to spec.
Can it be fixed to usable state? Most likely yes. Should the customer have to do that when they're paying thousands of dollars for a bike? Absolutely not. People need to push back against bike manufacturers when they sell them something that's obviously outside the specifications. This needs to be a warranty replacement because it's not what was advertised.

by Weenie


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LedZeppelin007
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:46 pm

by LedZeppelin007

Using a borrowed inside micrometer (I think correctly), I got 45.763 on the non-drive side and 45.787 on the drive side.

Edit: I’ve never used an inside micrometer, but believe I was using it reasonably. Unfortunately, I did not have a reference diameter by which to zero the device (which has a range of 40ish to 50ish mm), so I was forced to use the inside of a bearing cup that I measured at 41.8 with my calipers. I zeroed off of that and added 41.8 to any measurement I made. That definitely adds a bit of error to my figures, but I can’t imagine that it’s enough to account for nearly a quarter of a millimeter.




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