When will you buy eTap AXS?

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Moderator: robbosmans

The question is when...?

Poll ended at Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:50 am

Right NOW!
8
3%
Soon, when I get a better deal.
10
3%
April, when Force eTap AXS would appear.
18
6%
Want it, but no plan.
46
16%
My current groupset is just fine.
198
69%
Never! Single Speed FTW!
7
2%
 
Total votes: 287

stalkersk
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:44 pm

by stalkersk

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:44 am
In the past few weeks I bought a Red AXS upgrade group from Europe due to the current weakness of the EUR vs USD. I also bought a Force AXS upgrade group from my LBS because they had it on sale for 33% off.

Gotta say I'm kicking myself for not upgrading from eTap 11-speed sooner. It's so much more refined, though setting up the FD is still a pain in the ass. (Get the cage as low as it can possibly go without getting caught on the tallest teeth of the big ring. Tail guide mark perfectly parallel or slightly inboard. High limit set to 0.2-0.3mm.

1 week impressions:

It's the quietest group I've used in recent memory, quieter than eTap 11-speed, Ultegra 6500, Ultegra 6800, DA R9100 Di2, Super Record 12spd mechanical, and a mullet AXS build with a 10-52t cassette. I have not used the newer generation 12-speed Shimano.

I attribute most of this to the flat-top chain. It's so narrow, there's plenty of space between the link plates and adjacent sprocket teeth. The plates being so thin also probably reduces amplification.

I also think the fluid-damped clutch goes a long way. CyclingTips tested the efficiency of clutched rear derailleurs a few years back and found that SRAM RDs had zero additional drag while the slop in the pivot points on Shimano clutched RDs introduced some friction losses. The reduced chain bounce in all situations, even on smoother road surfaces is instantly noticed. Shimano MUST add this to their next generation road RDs IMO...they should have introduced a clutch on their R9200/R8100/R7100 RDs.

Mullet is louder, but mostly because of the very large, very hollowed out 10-52t cassette. It just makes a tinny noise in the largest and smallest cogs due to the 5.25mm chain and some very demanding chainlines, particularly the 44x52t or sometimes 46x52t combo I run.

The Red/Force AXS lever body is of course, noticeably narrower than the old eTap HRD lever body...I already knew this.

The chain works just fine on Praxis Buzz 10/11/12-speed chainrings.

The FD in its highest unmodified position on my Madone's integral hanger barely accommodates a 50t big ring. It definitely does not accommodate a 52t big ring, but I suppose I could use a plastic adapter to mount it higher.

Sramano did not work with an previous v1.0 KMC X12 chain (labeled SRAM MTB-only) and a Dura-Ace 11-34t cassette. The chain made rasping noises in all sprockets despite exhaustive micro-adjustment attempts. Shifting worked, but backpedaling in 50x34 resulted in the chain dropping into a smaller sprocket, potentially jamming the chain. I don't know if this is primarily the chain's fault, but I am unwilling to test this further. AFAIK Eagle, Shimano HG and YBN chains are 5.25mm, KMC are 5.2mm, Campy Road are 5.15mm, SRAM Road Flattop are 5.0mm and Campy Ekar are 4.9mm. I've seen various reports here of Shimano cassettes working eTap AXS, so I am a bit baffled. A Sramano hybrid build was my original plan because I wanted to run 52/36x11-34t for road race season...with Connex 12-speed quicklinks to facilitate easy chain waxing. Now I'm pretty sure I'm just going to run 50/34x10-33t and rely mostly on UFO Drip, reserving my wax baths only for a single race chain...and only for priority races.
IMO KMC chains do not work very well, I used X12 chain with Rotor and ZTTO cassette with Eagle RD, had chain drops backpedaling on biggest cog, swapped to Sram X01/XX1 chain and shifting improved and drops went away. The chain even skipped on ZTTO cassette biggest cog. I could not believe how big the difference was.

by Weenie


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bobones
Posts: 1271
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:44 am
I've seen various reports here of Shimano cassettes working eTap AXS, so I am a bit baffled.
I've been running AXS with Shimano CS-8100 11-34 cassette and CN-8100 chain on one bike since May and it's been perfect (around 1500 mi covered so far). RD and FD are Rival, chainset is 52/36 SRAM Red Exogram GXP with Praxis Buzz 12-speed compatible rings.

I initially had trouble with cassette wobble on some hubs but that was fixed by fitting a 1 mm space behind the cassette. Others have reported this issue with the new 12-speed Shimano cassettes and a 0.5-1.0 mm spacer or removing the sticky ring from the back of the cassette fixes it. Perhaps try this with your DA cassette?

I've also used a cheap Sunshine 12-speed 11-34 HG cassette from Ali-E, although I needed to shift the RD inboard by around 8 clicks and straighten my hanger to get good results.

Both AXS flattop and Shimano chains work fine with the Shimano cassette, but the Shimano chain is slightly more refined going down the cassette due to HG+.

Front shifting with the Praxis rings is fine, but pickup isn't as quick or quiet as on my AXS chainsets. I don't have height issues with FD mount as this bike is band-on, although other bikes I own can also take a 52 ring with their standard braze-on mount, but I understand this can be problematic.

I haven't fitted a chain catcher to this bike since it's a bare Ti frame and unlikely to suffer much damage, but I have had zero chain drops either inboard or outboard since dialing in the initial setup, and I have been using the AXS sequential shift mode which if anything would exacerbate dropping. I also tried non-12 speed Praxis rings, and while shifting was mostly fine, very occassionally the chain would fall into the gap between the rings leading to a complete loss of drive.

Maddie
Posts: 1532
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:44 am

by Maddie

Tobin, where have you seen 12s Connex quicklinks available? I thought they don't exist yet

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Maddie wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 5:12 pm
Tobin, where have you seen 12s Connex quicklinks available? I thought they don't exist yet

I don’t think they actually exist.

NickJHP
Posts: 462
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:22 am
Location: Canberra, Australia

by NickJHP

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:44 am
The Red/Force AXS lever body is of course, noticeably narrower than the old eTap HRD lever body...I already knew this.
Not the old and new levers I have. They feel exactly the same, and I just measured a Red eTap HRD lever and a Force AXS HRD lever. At the point where your thumb/forefinger wraps around when grabbing the lever, they're both 36mm wide and 42mm tall.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

NickJHP wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 9:31 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:44 am
The Red/Force AXS lever body is of course, noticeably narrower than the old eTap HRD lever body...I already knew this.
Not the old and new levers I have. They feel exactly the same, and I just measured a Red eTap HRD lever and a Force AXS HRD lever. At the point where your thumb/forefinger wraps around when grabbing the lever, they're both 36mm wide and 42mm tall.

The body at the clamps is rounder and narrower thanks to the battery compartment being moved to the bottom.

Sock3t
Posts: 448
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:20 am

by Sock3t

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:44 am
In the past few weeks I bought a Red AXS upgrade group from Europe due to the current weakness of the EUR vs USD.
Where from Tobin?

jadedaid
Posts: 185
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:43 pm

by jadedaid

Sock3t wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:57 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:44 am
In the past few weeks I bought a Red AXS upgrade group from Europe due to the current weakness of the EUR vs USD.
Where from Tobin?
r2-bike gets you a full red group incl. a quarq for 2400. 1600 for the group without cranks. I really don't need to replace my 11sp etap, but the price is making me think about it.

Fideliojbc
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:45 am

by Fideliojbc

jadedaid wrote:
Sock3t wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:57 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:44 am
In the past few weeks I bought a Red AXS upgrade group from Europe due to the current weakness of the EUR vs USD.
Where from Tobin?
r2-bike gets you a full red group incl. a quarq for 2400. 1600 for the group without cranks. I really don't need to replace my 11sp etap, but the price is making me think about it.
What about taxes or customs? €1,600 delivered at home?
Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NickJHP
Posts: 462
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:22 am
Location: Canberra, Australia

by NickJHP

Fideliojbc wrote:
Sat Oct 29, 2022 3:07 am
jadedaid wrote:
Sock3t wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:57 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:44 am
In the past few weeks I bought a Red AXS upgrade group from Europe due to the current weakness of the EUR vs USD.
Where from Tobin?
r2-bike gets you a full red group incl. a quarq for 2400. 1600 for the group without cranks. I really don't need to replace my 11sp etap, but the price is making me think about it.
What about taxes or customs? €1,600 delivered at home? Thanks
Better check first if they will deliver to your country. For instance, I know that r2-bike won't deliver either SRAM or Shimano components to where I live (Australia) or to the US.

Fideliojbc
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:45 am

by Fideliojbc

NickJHP wrote:
Fideliojbc wrote:
Sat Oct 29, 2022 3:07 am
jadedaid wrote:
Sock3t wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:57 am
Where from Tobin?
r2-bike gets you a full red group incl. a quarq for 2400. 1600 for the group without cranks. I really don't need to replace my 11sp etap, but the price is making me think about it.
What about taxes or customs? €1,600 delivered at home? Thanks
Better check first if they will deliver to your country. For instance, I know that r2-bike won't deliver either SRAM or Shimano components to where I live (Australia) or to the US.
I live in the USA. I understood he was located in the USA and bought it from Europe


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Fideliojbc wrote:
Sat Oct 29, 2022 3:29 am

I live in the USA. I understood he was located in the USA and bought it from Europe

I am in the US and bought my group from Europe. SRAM forbids this, but the shop in question shipped it out anyway.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

bobones wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 2:42 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:44 am
I've seen various reports here of Shimano cassettes working eTap AXS, so I am a bit baffled.
I've been running AXS with Shimano CS-8100 11-34 cassette and CN-8100 chain on one bike since May and it's been perfect (around 1500 mi covered so far). RD and FD are Rival, chainset is 52/36 SRAM Red Exogram GXP with Praxis Buzz 12-speed compatible rings.

I initially had trouble with cassette wobble on some hubs but that was fixed by fitting a 1 mm space behind the cassette. Others have reported this issue with the new 12-speed Shimano cassettes and a 0.5-1.0 mm spacer or removing the sticky ring from the back of the cassette fixes it. Perhaps try this with your DA cassette?

I've also used a cheap Sunshine 12-speed 11-34 HG cassette from Ali-E, although I needed to shift the RD inboard by around 8 clicks and straighten my hanger to get good results.

Both AXS flattop and Shimano chains work fine with the Shimano cassette, but the Shimano chain is slightly more refined going down the cassette due to HG+.

Front shifting with the Praxis rings is fine, but pickup isn't as quick or quiet as on my AXS chainsets. I don't have height issues with FD mount as this bike is band-on, although other bikes I own can also take a 52 ring with their standard braze-on mount, but I understand this can be problematic.

I haven't fitted a chain catcher to this bike since it's a bare Ti frame and unlikely to suffer much damage, but I have had zero chain drops either inboard or outboard since dialing in the initial setup, and I have been using the AXS sequential shift mode which if anything would exacerbate dropping. I also tried non-12 speed Praxis rings, and while shifting was mostly fine, very occassionally the chain would fall into the gap between the rings leading to a complete loss of drive.

I swapped to the Shimano chain and it's a lot better. I can now backpedal in 50x34. It's still not perfect, but I don't expect it to be. If I micro-adjust so there's no random little hop in 34x34 while hand cranking in the stand, the there's a little bit of noise in like 50x14...or vice-versa no noise in 50x14, but that random hop under no load in 34x34. It's usable for sure, but I would call it about 98% compatible.

And because the chain is wider, it solved a separate problem I was having with a P2M NGeco + Aldhu cranks.

I don't think I am sticking with SRAMano... the AXS cassette + flat-top chain is seriously the quietest I've ever used. Plus I liked the 50/34x10-33 range I had with it. That big 5:1 overdrive gear is nice on descents.

The P2M will go on my 1x gravel bike where the flat-top shifting problem I was having won't be able to manifest.

jlok
Posts: 2400
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

I wish there's a XG-1290 10-36, the original all-black Force cassette is noisier than Red...
Rikulau V9 DB Custom < BMC TM02 < Litespeed T1sl Disc < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



bobones
Posts: 1271
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:41 am
I swapped to the Shimano chain and it's a lot better. I can now backpedal in 50x34. It's still not perfect, but I don't expect it to be. If I micro-adjust so there's no random little hop in 34x34 while hand cranking in the stand, the there's a little bit of noise in like 50x14...or vice-versa no noise in 50x14, but that random hop under no load in 34x34. It's usable for sure, but I would call it about 98% compatible.

And because the chain is wider, it solved a separate problem I was having with a P2M NGeco + Aldhu cranks.

I don't think I am sticking with SRAMano... the AXS cassette + flat-top chain is seriously the quietest I've ever used. Plus I liked the 50/34x10-33 range I had with it. That big 5:1 overdrive gear is nice on descents.

The P2M will go on my 1x gravel bike where the flat-top shifting problem I was having won't be able to manifest.
If you haven't already done so, try it with a 0.5 or 1 mm spacer behind the cassette. This is what made all the difference for me and transformed the rear shifting behaviour from unacceptable to perfect.

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