*Tour Aero Bike Tests*

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ViperFFM
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Location: Frankfurt am Main,DE

by ViperFFM

Most of the claimed saving was due to narrower handlebars; this has been stated by trek. Id be pretty suprised if the new madone is any lower than 210w with that chonky BB.

I dont think we will see any omprovements until Spec comes out with the Re-Venge.
carbonLORD wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:23 am
I'm a CAT 3 Masters racer, not a dentist.

robeambro
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by robeambro

ViperFFM wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:32 pm
Most of the claimed saving was due to narrower handlebars; this has been stated by trek. Id be pretty suprised if the new madone is any lower than 210w with that chonky BB.

I dont think we will see any omprovements until Spec comes out with the Re-Venge.
Considering that post-Sagan, their "main rider" (Evenepoel) is a GC contender who will ride the SL7/8, I don't see them hurrying in releasing a new Venge. Even their new Rapide cockpit does not seem to point in that direction (a new Venge would likely have a v-shaped cockpit a la S5 and/or have more extreme shapes to take full advantage of relaxed UCI rules). This is not to say they're not developing one, but they may take their time to release it when PR coverage would be better and/or claimed watt savings could be higher.

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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

ViperFFM wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:32 pm
Most of the claimed saving was due to narrower handlebars; this has been stated by trek. Id be pretty suprised if the new madone is any lower than 210w with that chonky BB.

I dont think we will see any omprovements until Spec comes out with the Re-Venge.

I expect it to be faster than that on Tour’s test. The bars on a 56cm are 39cm at the levers, making them by far the narrowest on the market for complete bikes of that size. The ST now curves around the rear tire radius. The HT has a much deeper aspect ratio.

One potential handicap is the new Madone comes standard with RSL 51s whereas the old one was tested with deeper XXX 6s.

I’ll stick my neck out there and guess 207W.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

robeambro wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:21 pm
ViperFFM wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:32 pm
Most of the claimed saving was due to narrower handlebars; this has been stated by trek. Id be pretty suprised if the new madone is any lower than 210w with that chonky BB.

I dont think we will see any omprovements until Spec comes out with the Re-Venge.
Considering that post-Sagan, their "main rider" (Evenepoel) is a GC contender who will ride the SL7/8, I don't see them hurrying in releasing a new Venge. Even their new Rapide cockpit does not seem to point in that direction (a new Venge would likely have a v-shaped cockpit a la S5 and/or have more extreme shapes to take full advantage of relaxed UCI rules). This is not to say they're not developing one, but they may take their time to release it when PR coverage would be better and/or claimed watt savings could be higher.

Judging by their three rounds of layoffs and the perceived overlap between the Aethos and SL7, I’m going to say Specialized has had a few missteps in the past few years. It’s bizarre to me that they don’t promote the hell out of the Roubaix either. The Domane is Trek’s best selling road bike by … a lot.

e4rthm0ver
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by e4rthm0ver

Afaik Roubaix is best selling Spec road bike, way ahead of Tarmac & Aethos

ViperFFM
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Location: Frankfurt am Main,DE

by ViperFFM

Bought a Domane as well that I user for gravel and on the trainer mostly. Very versatile bike that can do it all!

I dont expecte a new Venge until Spring 2024 either
carbonLORD wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:23 am
I'm a CAT 3 Masters racer, not a dentist.

ichobi
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Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 pm

by ichobi

Which model sell well where is region specific? In Thailand where I live, the only spec model sold really well is s-works, tarmac venge or whatever but mostly normal road race bike. Distributors dont even order all that many non s-works frame (they tried but became deadstock). It has been this way since forever here. I have seen a Roubaix literally less than 3 times on the road and I ride in one of the most cyclist dense area in town.


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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

You can probably throw a 40cm bar on Dogma F or Cervelo S5 to, not a big deal. + S5 comes with pretty deep wheels and Dogma F has lots of options atleast if you buy it at Jedi Sports. Question is how they compete against Madone then!?
I mean, if you buy an off the shelf aero bike, you should be able to argue of cranks, stem and handlebars. You probably can pay up for a change of wheels to.
Btw, how's the new Foil RC?
I for sure think Specialized will bring a new aero bike. What stalls them, might be the lighter weight SL7 might be more popular by pro teams, than a comparable more heavy (wind tunnel) aero bike!?
For a company claiming "aero is everything", i still think they must be feed up with their own marketing BS (might be just me though).
SL7 and Aethos are hardly the aero hammers in this contest.
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Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
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Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

eins4eins
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Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:49 am

by eins4eins

I expected specialized to come with a new aero bike, but with the recent news of layoffs, ending their ambassodor programs and arguably ending their triathlon involvement, another road bike doesn't seem very likely. That segment is getting smaller every year and a new venge will probably only cannibalize SL7/SL8 sales.

ichobi
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by ichobi

Specialized has already made a new aero bar out in the wild on some pro bikes. It features a deeper top than their previous roval aero handlebar model. I am sure it will be for the claim of more watts saved. Not too dissimilar to what Trek did with their differential bar width stuff and claim it as an overall drag reduction.

Nereth
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Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:18 am

by Nereth

I'm starting to wander if the top 5 or 6 watts in the lineup are primarily decided by wheels?

Systemsix : I have read nothing but good things about the Knot 64s, admittedly this frame itself is likely also contributing some performance here.
S5: was 203W with 404s (58mm, well performing wheel), 206 with the old DT swiss arc 48mm? And 205 with I assume shimano C50 or C60, which either way could realistically be about halfway between the other two. This bike nicely shows that wheels decide a lot of the difference.
Venge: Also drops from 208W to 206W when swapped from Roval 64 to Zipp 404.
Canyon Aeroad CFR: An excellent 204w and, sure enough, the current gen DT arc dicut 1100 62mm. Which by all accouts seem to be about as good as you can get short of the same companies 80mm set.
The Simplon and Aerfast: Charty topping results and both also use the DT Dicut 62mm - But unlike the Aeroad, significantly deeper front ends (and all other features in the case of the Simplon)

All this brings me to my conclusion, regarding the Scott Foil - 206W, a middling result despite, by eye, Basically a TT bike with road bars, using a deeper front end than almost any others of these bikes, dropped stays as far as they can go, all the largest compensation triangles allowed by new rules.

Could the Scott Foil just be held back by the 454NSWs? A 55mm-on-average wheelset, and by the tests I've seen (e.g. Hambinis'), a surprisingly poor performer, more comparable to 40-45mm? I would think with some Zipp 404s it might be a few watts faster?

aeroisnteverything
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by aeroisnteverything

Nereth wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:54 pm
I'm starting to wander if the top 5 or 6 watts in the lineup are primarily decided by wheels?

Systemsix : I have read nothing but good things about the Knot 64s, admittedly this frame itself is likely also contributing some performance here.
S5: was 203W with 404s (58mm, well performing wheel), 206 with the old DT swiss arc 48mm? And 205 with I assume shimano C50 or C60, which either way could realistically be about halfway between the other two. This bike nicely shows that wheels decide a lot of the difference.
Venge: Also drops from 208W to 206W when swapped from Roval 64 to Zipp 404.
Canyon Aeroad CFR: An excellent 204w and, sure enough, the current gen DT arc dicut 1100 62mm. Which by all accouts seem to be about as good as you can get short of the same companies 80mm set.
The Simplon and Aerfast: Charty topping results and both also use the DT Dicut 62mm - But unlike the Aeroad, significantly deeper front ends (and all other features in the case of the Simplon)

All this brings me to my conclusion, regarding the Scott Foil - 206W, a middling result despite, by eye, Basically a TT bike with road bars, using a deeper front end than almost any others of these bikes, dropped stays as far as they can go, all the largest compensation triangles allowed by new rules.

Could the Scott Foil just be held back by the 454NSWs? A 55mm-on-average wheelset, and by the tests I've seen (e.g. Hambinis'), a surprisingly poor performer, more comparable to 40-45mm? I would think with some Zipp 404s it might be a few watts faster?
Would it not be odd to see Zipp 404 be faster than 454 NSW? I find that somewhat implausible as a theory.

As for the rest, more generally, I don't really see that strong of a correlation in your post to conclude that wheels are THE deciding factor, certainly not to the tune of the last 5-6 watts. I think there is a 1-2 watts difference as between the top wheelsets. Maybe 3 at most. The other 3-5 watts are the frames and cockpits.

Simplon and Cervelo share the v-stem design, and Bianchi went with this too in their latest aero monstrocity. This does tell me that despite the polarizing looks, there is something to this, and it is very likely to be a contributor to aero performance - perhaps also to the tune of 2 watts or so over a conventional aero bar/stem set up. The other bits where manufacturers seem to spend a lot of effort on are the fork legs, the fork crown/DT interface and the seatstays. I would hazard a guess that this is where Canyon and their Swisside helpers got it "right" with the Aeroad.

Nereth
Posts: 250
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:18 am

by Nereth

I agree there are a few watts in the frame too. 3 frames (aeroad 204w, storck 201, simplon 199) all on the same wheels and 5w apart gives you that.

But there's a lot on the wheels too - The cervelo S5 tested back to back, same frame same day, 3w different between the zipp 404 and the last gen dt swiss 48mm wheels. So that's 3w there. And the aeroad was never that extreme of a performer in previous iterations, until it got those wheels.

The zipp saw tooth design undulates between 53 and 58mm. Hambini tested last gens against last gens 404. The 404 tested in the top third of his lineup, around 55 to 65mm wheels. The 454 ranked in the bottom quarter, below the 303, around a lot of other 30 and 40mm wheels, bar some really poor performing flo 60s which got a specific call out for that.

And the new 454s on the foil are supposedly 4w aerodynamically slower than the old at 40kph (source:zipp press releases) - only faster overall due to wider tyre fitments and rolling resistance benefits.

BrianAllan
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by BrianAllan

I love this discussion -- it's surprising how close in watts the top bikes are. I think we've definitely hit a point of diminishing returns? I'm interested to see how the new Madone compares given the ugliness of that seat/downtube tube cluster. I hope it was worth it!

aeroisnteverything
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by aeroisnteverything

Nereth wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:57 pm
...Hambini tested last gens against last gens 404. The 404 tested in the top third of his lineup, around 55 to 65mm wheels. The 454 ranked in the bottom quarter, below the 303, around a lot of other 30 and 40mm wheels, bar some really poor performing flo 60s which got a specific call out for that.
...
Hambini never tested anything at all, and you should forget you ever saw that chart. Zipp/SRAM, I am sure, did test their wheels, and if the sawtooth profile is a failure, they could easily have reversed themselves in the 2nd generation of it (i.e., just dropped it). I don't know whether it has a measurable benefit over a conventional wheel profile in terms of drag (rather than stability), but it sure is more difficult from a manufacturing standpoint, and if it performs worse, why make the effort?

Don't get me wrong, I am as cynical as the next guy about the bike/component manufacturers being serial bullsh1tters in terms what they claim vs reality, but in this particular case, I just fail to see a good reason for Zipp to knowingly go with a solution that is worse from aero perspective for their top of the line wheelset.

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