Campagnolo 12-Speed

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Zorka
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:20 am

by Zorka

graeme_f_k wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2023 9:20 pm
Zorka wrote:
Thu Apr 13, 2023 6:57 pm
Nickldn wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2023 8:38 am
Zorka wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 9:45 am
When I adjust the cable tension to get the chain onto the largest cog, the chain can get down to the smallest sprocket, but is very loud across the range and doesn´t jump between cogs easily (sometimes takes 2 clicks to shift down).

Yes, maximum smoothness cableset was used. The cable moves very smoothly in the housing and the loop is big enough I think.
Not sure if there is much else I could suggest. If the cable is fine and the upper pully aligns with the small cog then the RD hanger may be an issue. The Campy 12s setup seems (unsurprisingly) more sensitive to this than 11s.

Could be alignment, or maybe something not quite right in the setup linking the RD to the DM hanger. If you have the parts trying the normal non-DM hanger would be a good next step.
No problem mate. Cableset is almost new and smallest cog is aligned perfectly. I also think the hanger was maybe a bit bent, but I have to order new one (see my previous post).
Maybe I´ll order non-DM hanger from Canyon first (it´s cheaper than Sigeyi) and try the shifting.
Another thing I heard about is the spacer behind the Campy 12s cassette. No info from Campagnolo directly, but for example Mavic hub requires to install 0.55mm spacer behind Campy cassette.
With stuff like this, go right back to the beginning and make sure that you have all the basics right - you can chase your tail for hours looking for a problem when it's something really fundamental that'll mean you can never get the set up 100% right.

The Mavic wheel issue is not covered in Campagnolo's literature - however, if you measure from the inside of the hanger to the centre-line of the smallest sprocket with the cassette fitted with no spacer, on a Mavic cassette body, you will see that the cassette sits slightly too far inboard as a result of the Mavic hub design. With the 11s Athena triple system, it used to be a routine thing, to add a 0.5 - 1mm spacer (depending on the starting sprocket size on the cassette) to get good indexing across the whole cassette.

So - to bring the 12s cassette into the position that the system is designed for, you will possibly need the spacer. The shorter the rear triangle of the frame, the greater the need to pay attention to detail like this.

Make sure the cassette locking is at 40nm.

Check the cassette body for "rock". Many of the Mavic cassette bodies are notorious for developing "rock". Any cassette body can do this of course - bearing wear will produce it, as can, in the case of a Campagnolo wheel / cassette body, a loose cassette body fixing nut.

Make sure that the wheel really is in the frame all the way - if it's through axle, that's not likely to be an issue but with QR, it's worth a check. If the wheel isn't properly vertical in the frame, the cassette is automatically misaligned relative to the hanger and to the RD.

Make absolutely sure that the lever end of the cable outer, under the tape, is fully engaged into the socket on the lever. If you have already taped the bars, put the bike into the biggest sprocket to maximise cable tension, then release the Torx screw that holds the lever to the bar and push the lever body hard "upwards" to make sure of the outer cable engagement. You only need a very small gap to develop between the end of the cable outer and the floor of the lever port, to cause issues, which will be worst at the "big" end of the cassette when you are on the big chainring, as the rear gear cable tension here is at it's highest, since the natural chainline as well as the RD spring are both trying to pull the chain off the biggest sprocket & both are resisting the chain going onto it, if the chain is on the penultimate sprocket.

If you haven't taped the bars, my preference is to fully insulation-tape the outers all the way up to where you terminate the bar tape, assuming the cables are external to the bars - not the usual 3, rather loose (IME) points at lever exit, bar curve and part way along the tops. If you anchor the outers like this, shift adjustment is more accurate and tends to stay "done", once done. I know of WW guys that will bemoan the extra 20g or so of sparky tape but saving that 20g or so only really matters once everything is working to spec ... and stays that way.

Check all the cable anchorages in the frame. We have seen some problems with pliable plastic guides taking the cables into the frame where guide distortion has caused shifting issues. TBF, we used to occasionally see this on 11s, too.

Use all original, metal, ferrules - the type with a "tail" - to minimise friction under tension at the point where the cable crosses into the frame. Cable motion can feel smooth when you test it with your hand but the RD puts just over a 1kg "pull" on the cable and that can convert a cable from being completely smooth, to not-so-smooth.

Once you have the indexing very close to right, hold Lever 2 across to "lock" the shifter internals and if you have any exposed gear inner, give it a gentle (around 1.5kg) pull to make sure the outer is properly seated in all the ferrules, then re-check adjustment. Otherwise, gently operate Lever 2 a couple of times, without the pedals turning - but do it very progressively - you don't want to strain the composite at the base of the lever.

If you have "California-Crossed" - don't, unless the frame and it's cable guides were specifically designed for it - it varies a little from frame to frame but it can be a source of friction.

Check that the hanger is properly tight to the frame - a lot of people neglect to check the fixing bolts / screws and again,with the chain fully crossed big-big, that's the time that the hanger is most likely to move.

As others have said, check the hanger spec. It's unlikely to be far adrift but I think you mentioned it's not the OE hanger and third parties do all sorts of weird things.

The b-screw adjustment is a balancing act with 12s. It's a competition on many frames between the normally used "H" dimension of 5-7mm on the biggest sprocket / small chainring (though on mechanical 12s this spacing is the same on both rings) and the chain wrap at the smallest sprocket. When in doubt, the chain wrap at the smallest sprocket should "win", that is to say, the chain from top jockey exit to smallest sprocket entry should either be parallel to the floor, at the highest degree of wrap, or run, as you look at it from the drive side, low on the right, where the chain exits the index pulley, to higher on the left, where it enters the smallest sprocket.
Great, thanks for your input, I´ll follow it when installing new hanger.
I don´t have the Mavic wheels, but I know Mavic sells 0.55mm spacer for their Campagnolo freehubs.

graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

Zorka wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:36 pm
graeme_f_k wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2023 9:20 pm
Zorka wrote:
Thu Apr 13, 2023 6:57 pm
Nickldn wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2023 8:38 am


Not sure if there is much else I could suggest. If the cable is fine and the upper pully aligns with the small cog then the RD hanger may be an issue. The Campy 12s setup seems (unsurprisingly) more sensitive to this than 11s.

Could be alignment, or maybe something not quite right in the setup linking the RD to the DM hanger. If you have the parts trying the normal non-DM hanger would be a good next step.
No problem mate. Cableset is almost new and smallest cog is aligned perfectly. I also think the hanger was maybe a bit bent, but I have to order new one (see my previous post).
Maybe I´ll order non-DM hanger from Canyon first (it´s cheaper than Sigeyi) and try the shifting.
Another thing I heard about is the spacer behind the Campy 12s cassette. No info from Campagnolo directly, but for example Mavic hub requires to install 0.55mm spacer behind Campy cassette.
With stuff like this, go right back to the beginning and make sure that you have all the basics right - you can chase your tail for hours looking for a problem when it's something really fundamental that'll mean you can never get the set up 100% right.

The Mavic wheel issue is not covered in Campagnolo's literature - however, if you measure from the inside of the hanger to the centre-line of the smallest sprocket with the cassette fitted with no spacer, on a Mavic cassette body, you will see that the cassette sits slightly too far inboard as a result of the Mavic hub design. With the 11s Athena triple system, it used to be a routine thing, to add a 0.5 - 1mm spacer (depending on the starting sprocket size on the cassette) to get good indexing across the whole cassette.

So - to bring the 12s cassette into the position that the system is designed for, you will possibly need the spacer. The shorter the rear triangle of the frame, the greater the need to pay attention to detail like this.

Make sure the cassette locking is at 40nm.

Check the cassette body for "rock". Many of the Mavic cassette bodies are notorious for developing "rock". Any cassette body can do this of course - bearing wear will produce it, as can, in the case of a Campagnolo wheel / cassette body, a loose cassette body fixing nut.

Make sure that the wheel really is in the frame all the way - if it's through axle, that's not likely to be an issue but with QR, it's worth a check. If the wheel isn't properly vertical in the frame, the cassette is automatically misaligned relative to the hanger and to the RD.

Make absolutely sure that the lever end of the cable outer, under the tape, is fully engaged into the socket on the lever. If you have already taped the bars, put the bike into the biggest sprocket to maximise cable tension, then release the Torx screw that holds the lever to the bar and push the lever body hard "upwards" to make sure of the outer cable engagement. You only need a very small gap to develop between the end of the cable outer and the floor of the lever port, to cause issues, which will be worst at the "big" end of the cassette when you are on the big chainring, as the rear gear cable tension here is at it's highest, since the natural chainline as well as the RD spring are both trying to pull the chain off the biggest sprocket & both are resisting the chain going onto it, if the chain is on the penultimate sprocket.

If you haven't taped the bars, my preference is to fully insulation-tape the outers all the way up to where you terminate the bar tape, assuming the cables are external to the bars - not the usual 3, rather loose (IME) points at lever exit, bar curve and part way along the tops. If you anchor the outers like this, shift adjustment is more accurate and tends to stay "done", once done. I know of WW guys that will bemoan the extra 20g or so of sparky tape but saving that 20g or so only really matters once everything is working to spec ... and stays that way.

Check all the cable anchorages in the frame. We have seen some problems with pliable plastic guides taking the cables into the frame where guide distortion has caused shifting issues. TBF, we used to occasionally see this on 11s, too.

Use all original, metal, ferrules - the type with a "tail" - to minimise friction under tension at the point where the cable crosses into the frame. Cable motion can feel smooth when you test it with your hand but the RD puts just over a 1kg "pull" on the cable and that can convert a cable from being completely smooth, to not-so-smooth.

Once you have the indexing very close to right, hold Lever 2 across to "lock" the shifter internals and if you have any exposed gear inner, give it a gentle (around 1.5kg) pull to make sure the outer is properly seated in all the ferrules, then re-check adjustment. Otherwise, gently operate Lever 2 a couple of times, without the pedals turning - but do it very progressively - you don't want to strain the composite at the base of the lever.

If you have "California-Crossed" - don't, unless the frame and it's cable guides were specifically designed for it - it varies a little from frame to frame but it can be a source of friction.

Check that the hanger is properly tight to the frame - a lot of people neglect to check the fixing bolts / screws and again,with the chain fully crossed big-big, that's the time that the hanger is most likely to move.

As others have said, check the hanger spec. It's unlikely to be far adrift but I think you mentioned it's not the OE hanger and third parties do all sorts of weird things.

The b-screw adjustment is a balancing act with 12s. It's a competition on many frames between the normally used "H" dimension of 5-7mm on the biggest sprocket / small chainring (though on mechanical 12s this spacing is the same on both rings) and the chain wrap at the smallest sprocket. When in doubt, the chain wrap at the smallest sprocket should "win", that is to say, the chain from top jockey exit to smallest sprocket entry should either be parallel to the floor, at the highest degree of wrap, or run, as you look at it from the drive side, low on the right, where the chain exits the index pulley, to higher on the left, where it enters the smallest sprocket.
Great, thanks for your input, I´ll follow it when installing new hanger.
I don´t have the Mavic wheels, but I know Mavic sells 0.55mm spacer for their Campagnolo freehubs.
One other thing worth saying - new hangers may be dead straight (or sometimes not, depends on the hanger manufacturer and the process they use) but there is no guarantee that the bed they sit on is aligned accurately - so even with abrand new hanger properly attached, I'd advise a check on hanger alignment.

For those who are skeptical, we once had a whole teams' worth of frames delivered with the hanger beds mis-aligned - the hangers were so hard that we couldn't align them without the darn things forming a crack I snapped the two spare hangers sent with the frames trying - and since we didn't have access to a new stock of hangers in a sufficiently timely fashion to do anything else, I wedged all 16 or the bikes' hangers with the tip of a small zip-tie to bring them into alignment. I'd guess, since I epoxied those wedges into place - and I know for sure I didn't remove all of them - there may still be Vitus frames out there, with my slightly dodgy handiwork in place.
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

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Zorka
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:20 am

by Zorka

graeme_f_k wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 6:11 pm


One other thing worth saying - new hangers may be dead straight (or sometimes not, depends on the hanger manufacturer and the process they use) but there is no guarantee that the bed they sit on is aligned accurately - so even with abrand new hanger properly attached, I'd advise a check on hanger alignment.
That´s the first thing I am planning to do when new hanger arrives. Thanks.

Butcher
Shop Owner
Posts: 1925
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:58 am

by Butcher

There are a lot of good people here but thank you, graeme_f_k, for sharing your wisdom. It seems like you have been absent lately. Probably busy which is always a good thing.

InoxEPS
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:32 am

by InoxEPS

Zorka wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:21 pm
gorkypl wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:51 am
Zorka wrote:
Thu Apr 13, 2023 7:07 pm
I tried the shifting with limit screws loosen and 5th cog perfectly aligned, but with no luck. The B-screw could be loosened even more as per Campy instructions (the lower chain branch must not face upwards) but I don´t think this will help the mech to shift on the 32 cog.
If it works perfectly when on small ring front and does not work when on big ring (as you described) then chain tension might be the reason, so unscrewing B screw might be worth trying.
It is also possible that the hanger is outside Campy spec, putting RD in a wrong angle. This can also be remediated to some point by B screw adjustment.
I´ll try to loose the B-screw to the point the lower chain branch will be almost parallel with upper chain. I have to wait few days more for the new hanger.
I believe the Sigeyi DM hanger is withing Campy spec, I measured it before installing.
I have few bikes here (all with Campagnolo SR12s Mechanical) so I can see that different design of rear derailleur hanger & different lenght of chainstay make a lof of difference.

Zorka
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:20 am

by Zorka

I think I have found the culprit of my problem (rear derailleur not being able to shift onto biggest cog when the chain is on the big front ring).

I measured the Sigeyi DM hanger and this dimension is a bit out of Campy spec. It´s not easy to measure it accurately, but it´s somewhere between 20-21 mm. The good news is the hanger is 8mm thick so I can grind off 1 mm of material from the outer side...yes, I know it must be precise job.

In case it won´t be enough I have also bought the 0.55 mm cassette spacer. I tried it and there is enough space to be installed behind the cassette.
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graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

Butcher wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:27 pm
There are a lot of good people here but thank you, graeme_f_k, for sharing your wisdom. It seems like you have been absent lately. Probably busy which is always a good thing.
Sorry, yes, we have been a teeny bit full gas (actially, still am with new material in the offing, probably more so than ever) but for some strange reason, I was locked out of my account for ages. Seemed like a major technical intervention by the Admins (thank you @currieinahurry) was needed to allow me out to play again ...
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

robertbb
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by robertbb

graeme_f_k wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 10:10 pm
Butcher wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:27 pm
There are a lot of good people here but thank you, graeme_f_k, for sharing your wisdom. It seems like you have been absent lately. Probably busy which is always a good thing.
Sorry, yes, we have been a teeny bit full gas (actially, still am with new material in the offing, probably more so than ever) but for some strange reason, I was locked out of my account for ages. Seemed like a major technical intervention by the Admins (thank you @currieinahurry) was needed to allow me out to play again ...
oooooh, this sounds promising. Unsure if you mean new training material or new physical componentry (one feeds into the other I guess).

Puhleeeease, let it be wireless Ekar. Pretty please.

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

Anyone know if anyone makes a set of white hoods for 12 speed Ergopower levers?


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buffonbj
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by buffonbj

Sorry if this has been covered before, I didn't find any good info while googling. I bought a used bike with Campa Super Record 12 speed. I like it very much, but I find the 175mm cranks too long. Are there any aftermarket cranksets / cranks that would fit? The Super Record crankset costs absolute bonkers. Record is cheaper, but just wondering if some other alternative existed.

fdegrove
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by fdegrove

Hi,

@buffonbj : Any 12S crankset should work but it's going to be heavier and it won't offer the shifting speed of the Campagnolo one etc.

Why not sell your current crank and buy a shorter one ?

Cheers, ;)
Being a snob is an expensive hobby.

joeyb1000
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by joeyb1000

buffonbj wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:44 am
Sorry if this has been covered before, I didn't find any good info while googling. I bought a used bike with Campa Super Record 12 speed. I like it very much, but I find the 175mm cranks too long. Are there any aftermarket cranksets / cranks that would fit? The Super Record crankset costs absolute bonkers. Record is cheaper, but just wondering if some other alternative existed.
If you're on EPS, almost any crankset will work.

If mechanical, you need 8.0mm between the chainrings to get the FD to work as designed. In this case, I vote for selling yours and buying a used set on eBay.

AM7Jeremy
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by AM7Jeremy

buffonbj wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:44 am
Sorry if this has been covered before, I didn't find any good info while googling. I bought a used bike with Campa Super Record 12 speed. I like it very much, but I find the 175mm cranks too long. Are there any aftermarket cranksets / cranks that would fit? The Super Record crankset costs absolute bonkers. Record is cheaper, but just wondering if some other alternative existed.
I've seen Rotor cranks play well with Campagnolo. But everything looks like a downgrade from Super Record unless it's a THM crank :lol:

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MrCurrieinahurry
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by MrCurrieinahurry

I agree with the above.. unless it's THM or an srm crank.. it's kinda a no go.

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gwerziou
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by gwerziou

robertbb wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 11:58 pm
Puhleeeease, let it be wireless Ekar. Pretty please.
Agreed!
• A hi-zoot bike, pretty sweet
• An old bike, more fun than the new one actually
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