Campagnolo Rear Derailleur 2015+ Upper Pivot

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Calnago
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by Calnago

So Joey, could you describe what we're looking at in each pic and what you did. Both pics which show the pulley and the cog relationship still seem to show quite a gap.
Did you ever try just changing the position of the spring in the "lower pivot) where the cage attaches to the body of the derailleur. Seems much less invasive.
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graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

We're just looking at a fix for this at the UK Main Service Centre with some UK teams and with the factory.

The problem is that the hanger is at the very maximum of Campagnolo's spec and the "hook" on the current hanger is also out-of-spec for use with a Campagnolo derailleur. Colnago's logic for the changes that they have amde in the hanger are, as Calnago has stated, all about ease of rear wheel removal, especially with fatter tyres in frames with atight clearance between back tyre and the seat tube.

As soon as the fix we are working on gets factory approval, I'll post. It's in testing just now.
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Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

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joeyb1000
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by joeyb1000

Thanks for the info.
For what it's worth, the improvement in my case was very significant. I was out on it today. It's much quieter than the pre-2015 setup. Shifting was spot on in every combination.
My diagnosis was easy. With the bike on the stand, it would not move to the next gear sometimes. If I pushed on the back of the derailleur to rotate it, it would shift. I used this to decide how far to make the second hole. I now have the lower pivot setting in the middle.

Attermann
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by Attermann

The 'new' screw, does anyone know what i does? i can see anything changing when i try adjustning it.

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boysa
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by boysa

I'm confused as heck with this thread. Am I the only one? It seems everyone is talking about several different and separate issues. :noidea:
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Calnago
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by Calnago

Good observation @Boysa. I'm not even going to begin talking about the "new screw".
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Valbrona
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by Valbrona

If the position of the RD hanger is so that it puts too much tension in the upper spring, surely the idea is to change the position of the lower spring to increase tension in that spring? These springs work by opposing each other.

I replaced an upper spring in old Record 10 speed today and there were two hole positions, but as someone in this thread has already pointed out, newer stuff has only one hole.

Attermann
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by Attermann

I just didn't want to start a new thread, the screw isnt mentioned in campagnolos manual for the rear derailleur

Edit: Never mind, apperently there are two manuals for adjustning, it is mentioned in the other one.

Arrgo1
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by Arrgo1

joeyb1000 wrote:Thanks for the info.
For what it's worth, the improvement in my case was very significant. I was out on it today. It's much quieter than the pre-2015 setup. Shifting was spot on in every combination.
My diagnosis was easy. With the bike on the stand, it would not move to the next gear sometimes. If I pushed on the back of the derailleur to rotate it, it would shift. I used this to decide how far to make the second hole. I now have the lower pivot setting in the middle.


Could you please describe how you removed and replaced the upper pivot bolt circlip, I would like to try your fix but don't really want to hamfistedly muck something up.

Thanks

joeyb1000
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by joeyb1000

I don't have photos. The new clip is two pieces. The first half was easy. The second half was difficult, and I did it by pushing on it with two screw drivers. I don't have any better advice.
Hint: I put a long Torx wrench in a vice (pointing up) and "mounted" the derailleur on it.

Arrgo1
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by Arrgo1

joeyb1000 wrote:I don't have photos. The new clip is two pieces. The first half was easy. The second half was difficult, and I did it by pushing on it with two screw drivers. I don't have any better advice.
Hint: I put a long Torx wrench in a vice (pointing up) and "mounted" the derailleur on it.



Thanks very much, I'll have a close look and perhaps give it a go.

:beerchug:

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Curious as to what makes you think you have to take such drastic measures? Do you know specifically where your frame/hanger is out of spec that a last resort option like that might be necessary?
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
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graeme_f_k
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by graeme_f_k

joeyb1000 wrote:See fix. It took about an hour. Hardest part was getting the new style clip off. Shifting is now perfect both up and down.


The reason the double Seager clip is hard to get off is because it is not designed to come off. If the RD now fails (for any reason) you have now voided your warranty.

What you should have done (and goodness knows how many times I have to type this) is if you find an issue from new and the installation is correct, contact a local Campagnolo ProShop or if there aren't any in your market - CONTACT YOUR MARKET SERVICE CENTRE!

In the UK, that's us ... elsewhere, the SCs are all listed at http://www.campagnolo.com
In extremis, in markets where there is no SC, any of the other SCs will help you, or you can contact the factory.

There is a problem with the spec of the Colnago dropout and we do now have a test-fix for it - both the length and the position of the hook on the dropout work against the Embrace design but the fix we are testing appears to work - in every test instance we've done it, it has introduced no problems but obviously we need to check the performance of those tests over a period of time to make sure that there are no unintended consequences ...

The fix we have does not involve opening the upper pivot, although obviously, we can if that is what is required.

The "fix" you have adopted (which we have tried) has not been fully factory-tested or field-tested as yet and may also cause issues - possibly with wear and tear on the gearing mechanism that facilitates "Embrace".
A Tech-Reps work is never done ...
Head Tech, Campagnolo main UK ASC
Pls contact via velotechcycling"at"aim"dot"com, not PM, for a quicker answer. Thanks!

Willem
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by Willem

graeme_f_k wrote:
joeyb1000 wrote:See fix. It took about an hour. Hardest part was getting the new style clip off. Shifting is now perfect both up and down.


The reason the double Seager clip is hard to get off is because it is not designed to come off. If the RD now fails (for any reason) you have now voided your warranty.

What you should have done (and goodness knows how many times I have to type this) is if you find an issue from new and the installation is correct, contact a local Campagnolo ProShop or if there aren't any in your market - CONTACT YOUR MARKET SERVICE CENTRE!

In the UK, that's us ... elsewhere, the SCs are all listed at http://www.campagnolo.com
In extremis, in markets where there is no SC, any of the other SCs will help you, or you can contact the factory.

There is a problem with the spec of the Colnago dropout and we do now have a test-fix for it - both the length and the position of the hook on the dropout work against the Embrace design but the fix we are testing appears to work - in every test instance we've done it, it has introduced no problems but obviously we need to check the performance of those tests over a period of time to make sure that there are no unintended consequences ...

The fix we have does not involve opening the upper pivot, although obviously, we can if that is what is required.

The "fix" you have adopted (which we have tried) has not been fully factory-tested or field-tested as yet and may also cause issues - possibly with wear and tear on the gearing mechanism that facilitates "Embrace".


Not entirely related to this thread, but contacting our "MARKET SERVICE CENTER" here in the USA is not that successful. I have a 2015 Super Record UT Crank set on a Colnago C60 which has been noisy almost from day one. What are the bearing fit clearances in micro mm supposed to be with the Cult bearings? That is radially, between outer race and cups and radially between inner race bore and crank shaft? Knowing that would help understand if I have faulty components, or if it is a design issue, meaning Campy has joined the sloppy Engineering Loctite remedy.

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Arrgo1
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by Arrgo1

graeme_f_k wrote:
joeyb1000 wrote:See fix. It took about an hour. Hardest part was getting the new style clip off. Shifting is now perfect both up and down.


The reason the double Seager clip is hard to get off is because it is not designed to come off. If the RD now fails (for any reason) you have now voided your warranty.

What you should have done (and goodness knows how many times I have to type this) is if you find an issue from new and the installation is correct, contact a local Campagnolo ProShop or if there aren't any in your market - CONTACT YOUR MARKET SERVICE CENTRE!

In the UK, that's us ... elsewhere, the SCs are all listed at http://www.campagnolo.com
In extremis, in markets where there is no SC, any of the other SCs will help you, or you can contact the factory.

There is a problem with the spec of the Colnago dropout and we do now have a test-fix for it - both the length and the position of the hook on the dropout work against the Embrace design but the fix we are testing appears to work - in every test instance we've done it, it has introduced no problems but obviously we need to check the performance of those tests over a period of time to make sure that there are no unintended consequences ...

The fix we have does not involve opening the upper pivot, although obviously, we can if that is what is required.

The "fix" you have adopted (which we have tried) has not been fully factory-tested or field-tested as yet and may also cause issues - possibly with wear and tear on the gearing mechanism that facilitates "Embrace".



Graeme
Getting in touch with the "SC" here in Canada and I'm sure in the United States is not exactly like a walk down the block to the chemist, in my case it's 3 time zones and 4300km away. They are resolutely unresponsive and that is what I'm sure is spurring a great deal of these home brew remedies for what has been a very finicky RD. I have Record 10 on a Cannondale(no issues for years, I have SR11 pre 2015 on a Cervelo R3 slightly fiddly but acceptably reliable. I am now running SR11 2016 on a Cervelo R5 and have spent the last three weeks dicking around with the RD to get it to shift in a manner that I would consider acceptable. Yes I have gone through all the normal checks, Hanger(new WheelsMFG unit) and tested by myself and LBS for correct orientation/straightness, new Campy cables cut square and deburred, Changed the tension setting on the lower pivot to the highest setting thinking it would "pull" the upper pivot forward allowing for more "embrace"(Love it, almost laughable marketing garbage) and I am still having the same lousy down shifting from 9 to 8 when on the big ring(slightly better on the small ring. 50/34 and 11/23 are what I'm using. All campy cranks/cogs/chain etc. Shifting up the cog-set is fairly consistent but down is another matter altogether, and yes I did check to make sure the spacers were in the correct order as per the manual.

Without having to do surgery on the upper pivot does anyone think that removing a small amount of material from the back face of the tang on the derailleur hanger thereby rotating the entire unit forward a degree or two might make any difference? At least if this turns our poorly it can be easily and inexpensively replaced. Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

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