Narrow vs wide tyres - Bring data

[teakay]

Obviously it's one rider and I'm not sure of the motivation, but Pogi went from riding 28c GP5K-TT-TR tires last season to 30c GP5K-S-TR's this year - going wider despite the TT being the "faster" tire.

He rode the TT's in most of mountain stages this year:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/from-p ... treatment/

[teakay]

https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/roa ... y-details/

[EtoDemerzel]

I'm not about to read all 19 pages of this thread, but I have a question (possibly already answered) and an observation.

- Q: Do those of you are saying "go as wide as you can as long as the tyre and rim width are matched" at least accept that there's an upper limit to this, and that there must be an optimal width for a given set of parameters and riding goals?

- O: Assuming "yes" to the above, it must be the case that the optimal width varies significantly with parameters, especially rider weight. Surely the difference in optimal width (all other factors being equal, e.g. same risk of pinch flats with appropriate inflation etc) for a 60kg rider and a 90kg rider must be more than the difference between a 25mm tyre and a 30mm tyre? So aren't all of these debates of 25mm vs. 28mm utterly pointless unless a rider weight (and other parameters) is/are specified..? Presumably contact patch will also scale with rider weight and appropriate inflation?

It would be interesting to test this somehow. But I don’t imagine the differences being as big as you think. Not big enough to say that a 60kg rider a 25 is best, an 80kg rider a 30. I think it would be a lot closer. Such that any rider between 60 and 90 kg a 30 is the best width or whatever. And you’d need to be at the extremes to go outside that. But that’s a guess. It would cool to see but probably expensive. I would agree that there is an upper limit, but I think that the upper limit might just be road bike tire clearance for now.

I’m a fan of wider tires. But like you said with weights, I also think there’s a fastest tire depending on the race and road conditions. Such that every race is going to suit a slightly different tire and rider. So like for a 60 minute crit, a narrower tire might be faster because you don’t need the comfort of a bigger tire. But a 5 hour road race the bigger tire gives you more comfort, and you’re not as fatigued and beat up at the end. Art of me thinks we’re splitting hairs a little though.

@neeb
You're making the assumption that a narrower tire is more optimized for a lighter rider. In fact, optimal tire performance is adjusted by pressure not width.

Of course there is an outer limit of width because aerodynamics and weight become factors here. But we are really talking about 25 to 28-30. Where not too long ago, 23 was the mainstay and now everyone is on 28s. Actual widths are probably up to 30-32 in some cases.
Narrow is more aero so that's why Swissside specs 26 front. But what's that actual width 26 on a 19-21id rim compared to a 23 on a 15-17id rim?
Rims were commonly 15 or 17id. The progression in wheel and tire tech is pretty huge in understanding all this.

The fact is from 23 to 32, there is zero difference in rr. in the lab (.2W slower for 23's)
IRL, enter hysteresis. And this is where things simply improve for 28+

@biketyson
in crits I see everyone running 28-30s it's just more control, faster and you can rail turns but still have control to bailout. for example, 6-10 turn bumpy course, there's way less chance of pinch flats and it's just faster.

[BenCousins]

This thread keeps delivering. Can't believe you guys waste your time trying to prove obvious facts and data to some bro science dude who lives in 2000s with his 23 tires if you haven't yet noticed those hard heads won't ever change/understand. But I respect your Hussle guys

People here run 23s? Who?

[neeb]

@neeb
You're making the assumption that a narrower tire is more optimized for a lighter rider. In fact, optimal tire performance is adjusted by pressure not width.

Yes, but rider weight dictates the lower range of acceptable pressure for a given tyre width if pinch flats etc are to be avoided. As a 64kg rider I run 25s on 19mm internal rims (they measure about 26mm) at 85/80 psi. A heavier rider would need to run those tyres at higher pressures, with negative consequences for rr. So if you're heavier, you need wider tyres to achieve optimal pressures for those tyres.

[Butcher]

People here run 23s? Who?

I do. 22 in the front. 55 wheels. I'm doing just fine.

[Alastair2308]

This thread keeps delivering. Can't believe you guys waste your time trying to prove obvious facts and data to some bro science dude who lives in 2000s with his 23 tires if you haven't yet noticed those hard heads won't ever change/understand. But I respect your Hussle guys

Because there isn't any obvious facts / data / proof outside of affiliated tests / data provided by cycling companies attempting to sell you something. The one test that isnt really affiliated with anyone is Brr and their testing shows that wider tyres aren't faster. So unless you have some actual data outside of the usual marketing claims and outside of yours or anyone else's #trustmebroguarantee it's faster my butt can totally feel it's smoother and faster and grips way better even though I'm not a pro and can't really push the bike to it's limits.

[Requiem84]

It's funny to always read 'yeah but us amateurs don't push the bike to the limits'.

That's not necessarily true. Sure, pro's corner faster than us, but many amateurs take very poor lines into corners. Many amateurs brake in corners when they shouldn't. Many amateurs do weird things when something unexpected happens.

If I have a bit of a scare and make a poor decision on the bike, I'd prefer that to be on the bike that has more grip so my mistake can be forgiven. The safety net for amateurs should be bigger than for pro's as we simply don't corner and descend as efficient and smooth as they day.

[Kubackjeee]

This thread keeps delivering. Can't believe you guys waste your time trying to prove obvious facts and data to some bro science dude who lives in 2000s with his 23 tires if you haven't yet noticed those hard heads won't ever change/understand. But I respect your Hussle guys

Because there isn't any obvious facts / data / proof outside of affiliated tests / data provided by cycling companies attempting to sell you something. The one test that isnt really affiliated with anyone is Brr and their testing shows that wider tyres aren't faster. So unless you have some actual data outside of the usual marketing claims and outside of yours or anyone else's #trustmebroguarantee it's faster my butt can totally feel it's smoother and faster and grips way better even though I'm not a pro and can't really push the bike to it's limits.

You clearly don't get one important thing. The longer the ride the faster the wider tire will be. You know why? Because of less vibration, which equals to less stress/fatigue on your body. You keep on talking about pros, so I will tell you one more thing. They are way more immune to fatigue then amateurs are. So that's another point why wider are faster also for amateurs. Bro if tadej uses wide you can be sure it's not slowing him down. Even for short tests like here from norcal cycling it's clear which tire is faster.

https://youtu.be/GTKjdTBCw58?si=ncGabxsOcAdzLFgd

And the fact that you "feel" narrow tire is faster has nothing to do with reality. It only shows you are looking at wrong things. You don't feel the speed, you only feel more vibrations, harder ride etc. Which in your head is received as being faster. It's similar to people who set their saddle to high and think they push harder from the top and generate more power, which again isn't tru. Only thing they feel is imbalance because of the Interia in the latter phase of the spin. Again feeling vs data

[barbaar]

This thread keeps delivering. Can't believe you guys waste your time trying to prove obvious facts and data to some bro science dude who lives in 2000s with his 23 tires if you haven't yet noticed those hard heads won't ever change/understand. But I respect your Hussle guys

People here run 23s? Who?

I do

NOS or frames that lack space for wider tyres

[Alastair2308]

This thread keeps delivering. Can't believe you guys waste your time trying to prove obvious facts and data to some bro science dude who lives in 2000s with his 23 tires if you haven't yet noticed those hard heads won't ever change/understand. But I respect your Hussle guys

Because there isn't any obvious facts / data / proof outside of affiliated tests / data provided by cycling companies attempting to sell you something. The one test that isnt really affiliated with anyone is Brr and their testing shows that wider tyres aren't faster. So unless you have some actual data outside of the usual marketing claims and outside of yours or anyone else's #trustmebroguarantee it's faster my butt can totally feel it's smoother and faster and grips way better even though I'm not a pro and can't really push the bike to it's limits.

You clearly don't get one important thing. The longer the ride the faster the wider tire will be. You know why? Because of less vibration, which equals to less stress/fatigue on your body. You keep on talking about pros, so I will tell you one more thing. They are way more immune to fatigue then amateurs are. So that's another point why wider are faster also for amateurs. Bro if tadej uses wide you can be sure it's not slowing him down. Even for short tests like here from norcal cycling it's clear which tire is faster.

https://youtu.be/GTKjdTBCw58?si=ncGabxsOcAdzLFgd

And the fact that you "feel" narrow tire is faster has nothing to do with reality. It only shows you are looking at wrong things. You don't feel the speed, you only feel more vibrations, harder ride etc. Which in your head is received as being faster. It's similar to people who set their saddle to high and think they push harder from the top and generate more power, which again isn't tru. Only thing they feel is imbalance because of the Interia in the latter phase of the spin. Again feeling vs data

Your clearly don't get one important thing. Where. Is. Your. Data. Norcal is great and I love their content but they are still not a lab controlled environment and there are just too many external factors at play to make any conclusions. Because I can also find a you tube video in 5 mins that contradicts Norcals points. SOOO we need actual scientific data to form an actual meaningful conclusion.

Where is your data from a reliable third party tester that is proving beyond a doubt that the wider tyre is going to be faster than the narrower one because of vibration. Where is the data? You don't have any.
Because I have contradicting ass data. My giant TCR advanced from 2012 rides on 25s (25WAM) and 17ID wheels rides better than my modern Felt AR on 28WAM and 23ID. But again. Ass data literally means nothing. So just because you are perceiving it doesn't actually mean its there. So who's ass data is right?

Again. If you are going to go down this road of feeling And perception you are utterly wasting your time chasing tyre widths because the tyre width if going to have a negligible difference on perceived comfort. Things that will make a perceptible difference on comfort will be 1. Contact points. And 2. Your wheel build. 3.Frame.
Not all wheels are made equal and the majority of cyclists are riding around on wheels that are wholly inadequate for their use case. Super stiff carbon spoked wheels are going to be doing zero favors in the comfort department. And people are going to be chasing down wider tyres hoping to improve their comfort.

Want to improve comfort and get faster. Build / buy a wheel that is going to suit your use case. A 60kg high performance rider is going to have very different requirements to a 90kg Mamil but everyone buys wheels as though all riders are equal.

So you wanna go fast. Build / buy the bike that fits you properly, matches your use case instead of trying to chase down if a wider tyre is faster or slower or more comfortable or not because the data we DO have says wider isn't faster or necessarily more comfortable. A bike that matches your use case and capability will be far faster than a bike that supposedly IS faster yet is somehow a mismatch for you in one or more areas.

[Alastair2308]

. Double post

[cajer]

This thread keeps delivering. Can't believe you guys waste your time trying to prove obvious facts and data to some bro science dude who lives in 2000s with his 23 tires if you haven't yet noticed those hard heads won't ever change/understand. But I respect your Hussle guys

Because there isn't any obvious facts / data / proof outside of affiliated tests / data provided by cycling companies attempting to sell you something. The one test that isnt really affiliated with anyone is Brr and their testing shows that wider tyres aren't faster. So unless you have some actual data outside of the usual marketing claims and outside of yours or anyone else's #trustmebroguarantee it's faster my butt can totally feel it's smoother and faster and grips way better even though I'm not a pro and can't really push the bike to it's limits.

You clearly don't get one important thing. The longer the ride the faster the wider tire will be. You know why? Because of less vibration, which equals to less stress/fatigue on your body. You keep on talking about pros, so I will tell you one more thing. They are way more immune to fatigue then amateurs are. So that's another point why wider are faster also for amateurs. Bro if tadej uses wide you can be sure it's not slowing him down. Even for short tests like here from norcal cycling it's clear which tire is faster.

https://youtu.be/GTKjdTBCw58?si=ncGabxsOcAdzLFgd

And the fact that you "feel" narrow tire is faster has nothing to do with reality. It only shows you are looking at wrong things. You don't feel the speed, you only feel more vibrations, harder ride etc. Which in your head is received as being faster. It's similar to people who set their saddle to high and think they push harder from the top and generate more power, which again isn't tru. Only thing they feel is imbalance because of the Interia in the latter phase of the spin. Again feeling vs data

One of the few things that we do know, is a narrower tire can have the same compliance as a wider tire if you choose the right pressures for both. You just run a risk of pinch flats, though tubeless has mostly mitigated that. So if you choose to run narrower tires you can get the same amount of comfort as wider tires.

Also that "test" isn't valid as he's not measuring or controlling for wind speeds/directions with a pitot tube at all. Nor is he doing particuallary tight control of which line he's taking.

[Kubackjeee]

This thread keeps delivering. Can't believe you guys waste your time trying to prove obvious facts and data to some bro science dude who lives in 2000s with his 23 tires if you haven't yet noticed those hard heads won't ever change/understand. But I respect your Hussle guys

Because there isn't any obvious facts / data / proof outside of affiliated tests / data provided by cycling companies attempting to sell you something. The one test that isnt really affiliated with anyone is Brr and their testing shows that wider tyres aren't faster. So unless you have some actual data outside of the usual marketing claims and outside of yours or anyone else's #trustmebroguarantee it's faster my butt can totally feel it's smoother and faster and grips way better even though I'm not a pro and can't really push the bike to it's limits.

You clearly don't get one important thing. The longer the ride the faster the wider tire will be. You know why? Because of less vibration, which equals to less stress/fatigue on your body. You keep on talking about pros, so I will tell you one more thing. They are way more immune to fatigue then amateurs are. So that's another point why wider are faster also for amateurs. Bro if tadej uses wide you can be sure it's not slowing him down. Even for short tests like here from norcal cycling it's clear which tire is faster.

https://youtu.be/GTKjdTBCw58?si=ncGabxsOcAdzLFgd

And the fact that you "feel" narrow tire is faster has nothing to do with reality. It only shows you are looking at wrong things. You don't feel the speed, you only feel more vibrations, harder ride etc. Which in your head is received as being faster. It's similar to people who set their saddle to high and think they push harder from the top and generate more power, which again isn't tru. Only thing they feel is imbalance because of the Interia in the latter phase of the spin. Again feeling vs data

Your clearly don't get one important thing. Where. Is. Your. Data. Norcals
is great and I love their content but they are still not a lab controlled environment and there are just too many external factors at play to make any conclusions. Because I can also find a you tube video in 5 mins that contradicts Norcals points. SOOO. So we need actual scientific data to form an actual meaningful conclusion.

Where is your data from a reliable third party tester that is proving beyond a doubt that the wider tyre is going to be faster than the narrower one because of vibration. Where is the data? You don't have any.
Because I have contradicting ass data. My giant TCR advanced from 2012 rides on 25s (25WAM) and 17ID wheels rides better than my modern Felt AR on 28WAM and 23ID. But again. Ass data literally means nothing. So just because you are perceiving it doesn't actually there. So who's ass data is right?

Again. If you are going to go down this road of feeling And perception you are utterly wasting your time chasing tyre widths because the tyre width if going to have a negligible difference on perceived comfort. Things that will make a perceptible difference on comfort will be 1. Contact points. And 2. Your wheel build. 3.Frame.
Not all wheels are made equal and the majority of cyclists are riding around on wheels that are wholly inadequate for their use case. Super stiff carbon spoked wheels are going to be doing zero favors in the comfort department. And people are going to be chasing down wider tyres hoping to improve their comfort.

Want to improve comfort and get faster. Build / buy a wheel that is going to suit your use case. A 60kg high performance rider is going to have very different requirements to a 90kg Mamil but everyone buys wheels as though all riders are equal.

So you wanna go fast. Build / buy the bike that fits you properly, matches your use case instead of trying to chase down if a wider tyre is faster or slower or more comfortable or not because the data we DO have says wider isn't faster or necessarily more comfortable. A bike that matches your use case and capability will be far faster than a bike that supposedly IS faster yet is somehow a mismatch for you in one or more areas.

That's all I gotta say. Mate talking to you is a waste of time. You should be grateful for all the free knowledge you can get here from people smarter then you, but you choose your own paths. Wish you all good kek

[Requiem84]

This thread keeps delivering. Can't believe you guys waste your time trying to prove obvious facts and data to some bro science dude who lives in 2000s with his 23 tires if you haven't yet noticed those hard heads won't ever change/understand. But I respect your Hussle guys

Because there isn't any obvious facts / data / proof outside of affiliated tests / data provided by cycling companies attempting to sell you something. The one test that isnt really affiliated with anyone is Brr and their testing shows that wider tyres aren't faster. So unless you have some actual data outside of the usual marketing claims and outside of yours or anyone else's #trustmebroguarantee it's faster my butt can totally feel it's smoother and faster and grips way better even though I'm not a pro and can't really push the bike to it's limits.

You clearly don't get one important thing. The longer the ride the faster the wider tire will be. You know why? Because of less vibration, which equals to less stress/fatigue on your body. You keep on talking about pros, so I will tell you one more thing. They are way more immune to fatigue then amateurs are. So that's another point why wider are faster also for amateurs. Bro if tadej uses wide you can be sure it's not slowing him down. Even for short tests like here from norcal cycling it's clear which tire is faster.

https://youtu.be/GTKjdTBCw58?si=ncGabxsOcAdzLFgd

And the fact that you "feel" narrow tire is faster has nothing to do with reality. It only shows you are looking at wrong things. You don't feel the speed, you only feel more vibrations, harder ride etc. Which in your head is received as being faster. It's similar to people who set their saddle to high and think they push harder from the top and generate more power, which again isn't tru. Only thing they feel is imbalance because of the Interia in the latter phase of the spin. Again feeling vs data

Your clearly don't get one important thing. Where. Is. Your. Data. Norcals
is great and I love their content but they are still not a lab controlled environment and there are just too many external factors at play to make any conclusions. Because I can also find a you tube video in 5 mins that contradicts Norcals points. SOOO. So we need actual scientific data to form an actual meaningful conclusion.

Where is your data from a reliable third party tester that is proving beyond a doubt that the wider tyre is going to be faster than the narrower one because of vibration. Where is the data? You don't have any.
Because I have contradicting ass data. My giant TCR advanced from 2012 rides on 25s (25WAM) and 17ID wheels rides better than my modern Felt AR on 28WAM and 23ID. But again. Ass data literally means nothing. So just because you are perceiving it doesn't actually there. So who's ass data is right?

Again. If you are going to go down this road of feeling And perception you are utterly wasting your time chasing tyre widths because the tyre width if going to have a negligible difference on perceived comfort. Things that will make a perceptible difference on comfort will be 1. Contact points. And 2. Your wheel build. 3.Frame.
Not all wheels are made equal and the majority of cyclists are riding around on wheels that are wholly inadequate for their use case. Super stiff carbon spoked wheels are going to be doing zero favors in the comfort department. And people are going to be chasing down wider tyres hoping to improve their comfort.

Want to improve comfort and get faster. Build / buy a wheel that is going to suit your use case. A 60kg high performance rider is going to have very different requirements to a 90kg Mamil but everyone buys wheels as though all riders are equal.

So you wanna go fast. Build / buy the bike that fits you properly, matches your use case instead of trying to chase down if a wider tyre is faster or slower or more comfortable or not because the data we DO have says wider isn't faster or necessarily more comfortable. A bike that matches your use case and capability will be far faster than a bike that supposedly IS faster yet is somehow a mismatch for you in one or more areas.

Do you have data from a controlled environment showing a narrower tire is faster?