Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed response Graeme - I was hoping you might throw you hat into the ring. I'd like to comment just a few points you made.graeme_f_k wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:49 amI've hestitated a while before coming to this party.
As most regulars here know, I'm the longest standing SC Principal within Campagnolo and have worked with Campagnolo product, on and off, for over 40 years - so, with that declaration of interest (for those that didn't know) up front, here's my take on what I have read so far:
General disappointment
Of all of the commentary I have read, I think the one above is probably the most pertinent - probably because it exactly mirrors my thinking about a lot of the adverse comment I've seen, from, let's remember, a group of people most of whom, at the time of commenting, have only journos reactions and pictures to judge from, plus a load of speculation - rather than actually seeing or riding WL.
Pricing
Price point is mostly a marketing decision. Using that experience as an indicator (there are lots of other things we can cite as examples), that, for me, means that premium is the way to go on the Campagnolo label.
General speculative commentary
I suppose what I find really amazing, is that there are fewer than 500 groupsets out in the wild at the moment and yet there are so many instant experts in how it feels and performs. [...] In fact, almost no-one in the real world has ridden WL yet, outside of Campagnolo. [...]
When a product is as trailered as long as WL was and is beset with as much speculation about it's likely features (113 pages and counting on this forum alone, before launch ...), whatever Campagnolo did, was going to attract criticism. You really can't please all of the people all of the time. [...]
But, if the market is making noisy demands for a wireless system, IMO, for it to be worthwhile, it has to be full wireless and that carries some penalties. One is derailleur size.[...]
Shift quality - this is the one I really find perplexing. [...]
Rim brake
I rue the absence of a rim brake option but we have to bend to the realities of the frame and wheel market as it is today. [...]
Shifting design
It was always going to be a gamble changing to a two lever shift, both behind the brake lever. As a long-time Campagnolo user (since the 1980s), and having raced on every iteration of Campagnolo index shift lever, it has been a bit of a jorney [...]
Batteries
Battery charging - how much criticism did Campagnolo take for a charging port that I and many others had zero problem connecting to, from a vocal minority of people who think it's appropriate to just ram a plug into a socket, using however much force they think it should take to get it in there? [...]
SRAM gears
The gear ratio issue is just about what people are used to. The various commentary about smaller sprockets introducing more friction is actually a distraction [...]
1. Pricing
I 100% agree that Campagnolo Super Record is a luxury cycling brand and needs to be expensive accordingly. I appreciate that savvy buyers are not going to pay RRP. But a crazy high price is still an anchor and people are still going to pay more for what I consider to be a compromise. Anyway, the key message is, there is expensive, and there is taking the piss. The price is taking the piss.
2. Defence of 'warranted criticism'
You do raise a good point - few peopl have seen it, yet there are so many armchair critics. I have to point out that pretty much all my points of criticism related to what I consider to be poor design choices rather than performance. I dont need to ride SRW to know the derailleurs are unsightly, the graphics are uninspiring, or that the shift layout is a compromised design thats only come about to avoid patent infringements, and would never have been implemented if those patents werent there.
The point is, the ideas supporting the essence of SRW are bad rather than it performing badly out on the road. Yes, I did raise the points of the sharp levers and that negative reivew. I'm pretty confident that out on the road the shifting would be fine. Campy wouldnt release something that doesnt work.
3. The role of market sentiment and suggestions for the future
There seem to be two problems here:
- 1. Campagnolo have paid too much attention to what they think the market wants
2. Campagnolo have not prioritised function over market sentiment
Re the second point, what people think they want (i.e. market sentiment) should not trump function and practical everyday use. Just becuase people want wireless, doenst mean they should get it. I guess its not black and white, but the wireless thing its a good example of where 'what the market' wants should be cast aside. Without taking the time to justify why, semi-wired is hands down a better solution at this point in time. Better looking, probably lighter, longer lasting. Campagnolo need to implement some internal checks and balances to ensure that the essence of its brand identity and the overarching goal 'to make the best groupset on the market' are never compromised by ostensible market senitment.
The key points are that Campy need good evidence to prop up a strong understanding of a) what the *target* market wants, and b) whether protoypes garner positive responses and to then take that evidence as inputs to the development of a final product thats guided by the balance of non-negotional principles of 'pinnacle of function' and 'Campagnolo heritage'.
SRW's development was clearly guided by a misunderstanding of what the target marked wanted which lead to an effective abandonment of the principles of 'pinnacle of function' balanced against 'Campy heritage'.
4. Other titbits
- - The charger for EPS was the worst design ever. How that abomination happened I dont know.
- I hold out hope that rim brake is going to remain a thing becuase a lot people still want it. I know its a rotting horse, but I remain hopeful campy will continue to offer mechanical rim brake SR groupsets.