Rumors Next Generation Campagnolo Road?

[MarkMcM]

The one positive for me is the gear ratios. They just make sense - 1st 8 sprockets are 1 tooth increments (10-25 and 10-27) and the range is still huge. For me, a 45-29 with a 10-27 would give me (almost) every gear I ever wanted.

One thing that is worth pointing out, though, is that counting the teeth difference between cogs doesn't tell the whole story about the difference in gear ratios. The relative difference between the 10 and 11 teeth cogs is a lot greater than between the 16 and 17. For racing or in any situation where you actually pedal and put down power at these speeds (it can even be a downhill or section on a zone two ride, you don't have to be a pro to use these gears), this is far from ideal.

Essentially there is no free lunch here. For a set number of sprockets in the cassette, you can choose the ratios however you want, but there is no combination that magically gives smaller spacing with the same range. Going to very small chainrings, as SRAM already did, gives that illusion, but that is because the 1 tooth jumps at the bottom are effectively larger.

I'd rather have 10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17 on the Campy 10-27 than 11-12-13-14-15-16-17-19 like on the Shimano 11-30. That last jump from 17->19 is 11.8%. 10->11 is just 10%. You will end up shifting between the 17/19 on a Shimano cassette a lot more often than between the 10/11 on a Campy cassette (almost never.)

Shimano will eventually fall in line. The 10t cog is a necessity on MTB and gravel...it is an inevitability that it comes to GRX at some point, and then road after that.

Like above, there's no free lunch. The Campy 10-27 still has a 17-19 11.8% jump, it just one sprocket over on the cassette. How often a rider crosses that 17-19 jump will depend on chainring size(s), speed and cadence, so it will vary from rider to rider and there's no clear winner. However, comparing the other sprockets in both cassettes, all the other jumps on the Campy cassette are equal to or larger than on the Shimano 11-30 cassette.

[MarkMcM]

I'm with everyone else - ill take the tighter gearing over any minor loss in efficiency.

Well, that's just it - Super Record WRL doesn't actually have have tighter gearing than the previous Campagnolo 12spd (except for the 10-25 cassette, which is probably going to be the least popular). Super Record WRL has effectively the same range of gearing, with the same average jumps between gears, just done with smaller chainrings and sprockets (and their subsequent lower efficiency and faster wear).

[HiFi]

10T allows smaller rings, and they multiply the jumps by smaller amounts, eg 48 (new) divided by 52 (old) is 0.92 ie 8% smaller jumps at the tarmac.

[morrisond]

I'm with everyone else - ill take the tighter gearing over any minor loss in efficiency.

Well, that's just it - Super Record WRL doesn't actually have have tighter gearing than the previous Campagnolo 12spd (except for the 10-25 cassette, which is probably going to be the least popular). Super Record WRL has effectively the same range of gearing, with the same average jumps between gears, just done with smaller chainrings and sprockets (and their subsequent lower efficiency and faster wear).

I was thinking of using the 10-25 with 45/29 just for the nice tight gearing.

[Nickldn]

I'm with everyone else - ill take the tighter gearing over any minor loss in efficiency.

Well, that's just it - Super Record WRL doesn't actually have have tighter gearing than the previous Campagnolo 12spd (except for the 10-25 cassette, which is probably going to be the least popular). Super Record WRL has effectively the same range of gearing, with the same average jumps between gears, just done with smaller chainrings and sprockets (and their subsequent lower efficiency and faster wear).

I was thinking of using the 10-25 with 45/29 just for the nice tight gearing.

You want tight gearing (because I presume you ride pretty fast and want to tailor your cadence which requires small jumps), but you don't mind a big chainring size of just 49.5t (in 11t cassette equivalent)?

[MarkMcM]

10T allows smaller rings, and they multiply the jumps by smaller amounts, eg 48 (new) divided by 52 (old) is 0.92 ie 8% smaller jumps at the tarmac.

Chainring size has no affect on the size of the gear jumps when shifting the rear derailler. A shift from a 16 sprocket to a 15 sprocket is an increase of 6.67%, regardless of whether the chainring is a 53 tooth or a 29 tooth.

On the other hand, chainring size does affect the size of the jumps when shifting the front derailleur. All the recent double cranks have a 16 tooth differential between chainrings (52/36, 50/34, 48/32, 45/29). But the smaller the chainrings, the bigger the ratio jumps when shifting between the chainrings - a 50/36 has a 39.9% ratio jump, a 50/34 has 47.1% ratio jump, a 48/32 has a 50.0% ratio jump, and a 45/29 has a 55.2% ratio jump.

Campagnolo claims their new drivetrain delivers "perfect cadence", what ever that means. But as far as reducing cadence changes when shifting, they've done a poor job. The new cassettes have roughly the same gear size jumps (and thefore the same cadence changes) as their old cassettes when shifting the rear derailleur, but when combined with the smaller cranks it results in bigger gear jumps (and therefore bigger cadence changes) when shifting in the front. It appears Campagnolo is relying on their customers not understanding the basic math of fractions and ratios.

[MarkMcM]

I'm with everyone else - ill take the tighter gearing over any minor loss in efficiency.

Well, that's just it - Super Record WRL doesn't actually have have tighter gearing than the previous Campagnolo 12spd (except for the 10-25 cassette, which is probably going to be the least popular). Super Record WRL has effectively the same range of gearing, with the same average jumps between gears, just done with smaller chainrings and sprockets (and their subsequent lower efficiency and faster wear).

I was thinking of using the 10-25 with 45/29 just for the nice tight gearing.

That's the only SR WRL cassette that has tighter ratios than the previous 12 speed. But that's not saying much, because the previous 12 speed didn't have tight ratios at all. One might expect that when adding sprockets, one might be able to acheive tighter ratios than cassettes with fewer sprockets. But the Campagnolo 12spd cassettes with the tightest ratio still had bigger gear jumps than many Campagnolo 10spd and 11spd cassettes. (Of course those tight ratio 10spd and 11spd cassettes came at the expense of narrow ranges, but it is still mystifying why Camapgnolo couldn't make 12spd cassettes with equal tightness but wider range.)

[HiFi]

10T allows smaller rings, and they multiply the jumps by smaller amounts, eg 48 (new) divided by 52 (old) is 0.92 ie 8% smaller jumps at the tarmac.

Chainring size has no affect on the size of the gear jumps when shifting the rear derailler. A shift from a 16 sprocket to a 15 sprocket is an increase of 6.67%, regardless of whether the chainring is a 53 tooth or a 29 tooth.

In fact we are both wrong, referring to a gear table such as https://www.bikecalc.com/gear_meters_of_development you can see that the jumps are greater in the lower chainring sizes. Look above and below 48x12 and 52x13 (which both produce 8.44 metres) and you see the jumps in the 48 column are larger than the 52.

[TobinHatesYou]

10T allows smaller rings, and they multiply the jumps by smaller amounts, eg 48 (new) divided by 52 (old) is 0.92 ie 8% smaller jumps at the tarmac.

Chainring size has no affect on the size of the gear jumps when shifting the rear derailler. A shift from a 16 sprocket to a 15 sprocket is an increase of 6.67%, regardless of whether the chainring is a 53 tooth or a 29 tooth.

In fact we are both wrong, referring to a gear table such as https://www.bikecalc.com/gear_meters_of_development you can see that the jumps are greater in the lower chainring sizes. Look above and below 48x12 and 52x13 (which both produce 8.44 metres) and you see the jumps in the 48 column are larger than the 52.

And if you are trying to maintain a certain power+cadence, then by going larger you will need to go with a larger sprocket. This is fine with the larger chainring setup until you hit a transition point where a 1t jump becomes a 2t jump or a 2t jump becomes a 3T jump. Without the 10t cog, those transitions come one position earlier.

TL;DR a 16-17 jump with a 48t chainring is not the same as one with a 52t chainring because with the latter you’d be jumping from 17-19.

[Ritxis]

Are you not "eating" your head a lot with the subject of developments?

For me it is the least important thing if I would be interested in the group (which I am not) As I have been doing for years, I customize the cassettes to my preferences, as well as the chainrings.....Who would want to buy this group and is not convinced by what it offers in this aspect, I have no doubt that they could mount other cassettes and cranks

I would put other things as a priority before...things that Campagnolo......

appearance, weight, different batteries...if that from some reviews about the operation is true.....
come on, the least I care about is the development issue and if it loses or gains 1 or 3 watts... something that not even God will notice... nor will it make it go more or less fast...

you need good legs and a good "bend" of the back

[morrisond]

I'm with everyone else - ill take the tighter gearing over any minor loss in efficiency.

Well, that's just it - Super Record WRL doesn't actually have have tighter gearing than the previous Campagnolo 12spd (except for the 10-25 cassette, which is probably going to be the least popular). Super Record WRL has effectively the same range of gearing, with the same average jumps between gears, just done with smaller chainrings and sprockets (and their subsequent lower efficiency and faster wear).

I was thinking of using the 10-25 with 45/29 just for the nice tight gearing.

You want tight gearing (because I presume you ride pretty fast and want to tailor your cadence which requires small jumps), but you don't mind a big chainring size of just 49.5t (in 11t cassette equivalent)?

That's absolutely fine. At 90 RPM on the flat that's over 52 KPH - I'm not nearly that fast and much more than that going down hill I'm happy coasting. I don't need to bomb down hills at over 70KM/h anymore

[rudye9mr]

Not nearly as cadence sensitive as others...whatever the cassette and chainring....will adjust within reason.

Apart from that, will frames accommodate the smallest chainring option?

I saw here a 795 blade rs running into issues for a crank based PM...hence the query..

[TobinHatesYou]

Not nearly as cadence sensitive as others...whatever the cassette and chainring....will adjust within reason.

Apart from that, will frames accommodate the smallest chainring option?

I saw here a 795 blade rs running into issues for a crank based PM...hence the query..

The potential chainring issue is on the vertical axis. The Look 795 Blade vs crankarm PM pods issue would be on the horizontal axis. The former would be very unlikely save for maybe some more extreme TT/Tri rear stay designs.

[usr]

On the other hand, chainring size does affect the size of the jumps when shifting the front derailleur. All the recent double cranks have a 16 tooth differential between chainrings (52/36, 50/34, 48/32, 45/29). But the smaller the chainrings, the bigger the ratio jumps when shifting between the chainrings - a 50/36 has a 39.9% ratio jump, a 50/34 has 47.1% ratio jump, a 48/32 has a 50.0% ratio jump, and a 45/29 has a 55.2% ratio jump.

But it's not wrong, within the choice of available cranksets, to give those opting for smaller rings a wider spread than those opting for larger rings: most riders attracted to 1:1 will consider overlap nothing but waste and would rather have wider total spread, whereas many of those who pick bigger rings will see benefit in overlap, better chainlines when desired and more opportunities to completely forego front shifting.

[Butcher]

I have always wanted and wondered why they did not offer a tighter spacing with the older EPS12 cassettes. I was told they would never sell and it was wishful thinking.

Funny how they now have a cassette that would put a smile on my face. Maybe you all would not purchase one, but I would. Sadly, I would have to get a new hub to make use of that cassette.