Bikefit in 2023

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

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Nohands83
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by Nohands83

Echo the comment above about physiotherapists who are also fitters being good starting point, appreciate this isn't a prerequisite and that there will be exceptions but in my experience, they're able to offer a much more holistic view of any issues, injuries, asymmetries etc. you have.

I've found there's a significant amount of variation in experience, and knowledge with fitters, probably in part due to it being a fairly low bar to enter the field. There's a mate of mine who does the in-shop fits (at the shop he works) - purely on the basis that he's worked there longest... he may well be ok doing basic setup for an inexperienced rider but no chances would I pay him £200.

In terms of fitting systems, good fitters seem to use these to cross-reference the changes they've made rather than relying on them - in the way poor fitters with a lack of knowledge do.

Personally, I think a good fit is one of the most important investments you can make in cycling. As it not only addresses how your body is utilised but it can significantly affect how a bike handles.

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MrCurrieinahurry
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by MrCurrieinahurry

StumpMan wrote:
apr46 wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:03 pm
The lack of science in bike fitting is a problem. There is so much science in how to collect the measurements (e.g., dynamic vs. static measurements has ~dozen peer reviewed papers), but very little on physiology. You end up with a bunch of junk data.

A lot of really well regarded fitters are doing it based on experience of what works as coaches rather than understanding of the human body. The rare fitter that is a physiotherapist has yielded me better results. My best results were using the myvelofit app to collect measurements and a Wahoo Kickr Bike to make adjustments in service of stabilizing my hips and keeping my knees tracking vertically; but I was already working from a pretty good fit and starting point.

I agree that not enough use science or know how to test people.

Saying a physio would do a better job is a very broad stroke of a brush.

Some people have a good understanding of their body and others don't. Helping people learn is a big part of my job that I love.

Having fitted people with a range of challenges such replacement/resurfaced hips to debilitating spinal conditions, from those and to the wind tunnel with some of the fastest people in the world. Experience helps you get to the right position with an athlete.
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wooger
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by wooger

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:14 pm
^ I would sell them the ill-fitting bike if they demanded, but I would not set it up outside service manual guidelines.

Here is a Domane RSL being set up with 17mm headset cover + 50mm worth of spacers when the stated limit is 40mm.

https://i.imgur.com/KsK9CmB.jpg
Wow, if only they made a bike exactly like the Domane RSL but with less aggressive front end.

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C36
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by C36

StumpMan wrote:[
Saying a physio would do a better job is a very broad stroke of a brush.
I will throw another unpopular opinion… a bike fit must start with custom soles made by a podiatrist, w/o it is building a house on uncertain ground. There are so many asymetries and weaknesses you should solve with the soles before looking how to adjust body position.

That’s not something new, my first fit in 99 used by Cofidis and Vandenbroucke started by the podiatrist sole… but never expanded to the masses (I know QS does, my podiatrist works with Allaphilippe and Bardet among others).
Last edited by C36 on Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

That's not that much of a hot take. Fits should begin with the feet, move to the knees, then the pelvis and then the upper body.

Something like knee varus/valgus is primarily corrected at the feet and not with saddle position.

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C36
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by C36

TobinHatesYou wrote:That's not that much of a hot take. Fits should begin with the feet, move to the knees, then the pelvis and then the upper body.

Something like knee varus/valgus is primarily corrected at the feet and not with saddle position.
Should be the norm but I only found 1 fitter that spontaneously pushed riders to start doing medical-soles… that usually push the fit session by several weeks.

Doing a bit of a science experiment we did a fit with and without soles and we had many mm different on cleats and seatback, basically a lot of the work to align the knees, stabilise the hips and shoulders was unnecessarily once we installed the soles (and I have no particular pathology, same length legs…).

apr46
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by apr46

StumpMan wrote:
Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:58 pm
Saying a physio would do a better job is a very broad stroke of a brush.
I was talking my own results specifically, and yes I agree--degree is a credential and not at all a guarantee of a result.

The best thing is getting help understanding what makes a difference for you, being able to watch it yourself as you go in and out of fitness, and then reach out for help when you need to fix something.

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

C36 wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:49 am
I will throw another unpopular opinion… a bike fit must start with custom soles...
Perhaps more precisely the fit should start with pressure mapping of the feet while pedalling? The goal being to create uniform pressure across the bottom of the foot? Shimming, wedging, and or custom footbeds to achieve the standard notion of alignment might not address some individual bio-mechanical peculiarities. Chris Horner's ankles come to mind.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

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C36
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by C36

Mr.Gib wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:19 pm
C36 wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:49 am
I will throw another unpopular opinion… a bike fit must start with custom soles...
Perhaps more precisely the fit should start with pressure mapping of the feet while pedalling? The goal being to create uniform pressure across the bottom of the foot? Shimming, wedging, and or custom footbeds to achieve the standard notion of alignment might not address some individual bio-mechanical peculiarities. Chris Horner's ankles come to mind.
My very first serious fit in 99 started with a pressure mapping of the feet while pedalling (it was lead by a podiatrist) leading to medical soles. That was totally unique at the time (to the point that Vanderbrouck did his fit there before his great 99 season). It does improve things but doesn't necessarly correct for alignment problems or pedal stroke stability (here quoting the doctors). Seems you can't spare a static analysis and that does the big part of the problem solving.

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KarlGLS
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by KarlGLS

tarmackev wrote:I'm putting this out there as I'm genuinley curious to people's thoughts.

I was a bike fitter for the best part of 10 years, Trek fit taught by Phil Cavil. Guru fit and Retul.
Although I did buy in to it in some ways in others I didn't, to put it simply if mm perfect fit is essential how can we go from road, to TT, to MTB, all with totally different positions and have no problems.
I'd always ridden 38mm bars and was always told how I was risking shoulder injury and breathing issues as I was too restricted.
I can ride pretty much any height at the front as long is my saddle height is within 5mm and the reach not too long.

In 2023 what's the feeling with bikefit, do people still swear by them? Are there still bike fitters who are rushed off their feet and it's almost a badge of honour with bragging rights if you go them? I see folk now needing a very specific bar and needing it to be the exact right shape. It seem's like bars have really gone up in importance to people.
Are people still getting bike fits on a regular basis?
What's the scuttlebutt?
For someone who has been struggling to find decent fitter , yes bike fitting is still as MUST. 8/10 are riding the saddle too high, 6/10 people end up on a bike too big for them
simply blabla-ing

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

tarmackev wrote:
Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:11 pm
In 2023 what's the feeling with bikefit, do people still swear by them? Are there still bike fitters who are rushed off their feet and it's almost a badge of honour with bragging rights if you go them? I see folk now needing a very specific bar and needing it to be the exact right shape. It seem's like bars have really gone up in importance to people.
Are people still getting bike fits on a regular basis?
What's the scuttlebutt?
I like the trend to shoving the saddle forward. I ride once a week with a buddy who struggles to reach the bars, ends up resting the hands halfway back down the hoods, brake levers out of reach, and bike wobbling with a shitty short stem. I couldn't take in any longer. I got him to stop, hand me his multi-tool. I moved the seat about 20mm forward. Gets back on and he looks a bit more like a cyclist. Two hours later I ask him - "how are your hands, neck, etc?" He says fine. Next outing together he is on his other bike, now also with the saddle shoved forward. His original fit was a full high tech affair with a leading fitter. Perhaps I killed him, no idea. But at least I don't have to look at that mess for 3 hours every Wednesday morning.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

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tarmackev
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by tarmackev

This all makes for interesting reading and there are some great points.
I read "Physio's make good fitters" and agreed. I then read "that's a broad statement" and thought about two physio's at a gym I worked who branched out in to bike fit who were terrible.

I also thought of the first Core Fitness class I took when I worked a David Lloyd gym. Three of the participants were physio's, all three fat and all three were abysmal at even the simpleset exercise and seemed to have no idea how the body worked and why we did certain movements.
It was the same as a gym instructor and personal trainer. There were folk who aced everything but when it came to practical knowledge were truly abysmal.

One thing I always enjoyed as a fitter was measuring and asking the persons height. I'd be told "I'm 6ft, 184cm". I'd measure them and they'd be 179cm. I'd usually have to get a tape measure out next to the measuring chart that was mm perfect to show them their true height.
Through the fit they'd refer to themselves at 184 and insist I was measuring them wrong.
I swear it was over half the time people had a problem with their height and if they were okay it seemed that over 90% thought they were taller than they were.

We had one guy who was in his mid 50's and heavy but fast. On the local chaingang with team Sky and team BMC riders. He'd never had a fit, he came in and had one, we adjusted him very slightly, we told him his position was fine. He was no faster and no more uncomfortable, we told him there'd be no difference. He went crazy on social media saying "it didnt work". I'm not sure what he expected. We ended up blocking him and banning him from the shop. Total nightmare.
It was generally the older, stuck in their way, 53-11 at all times, saddle 3cm too high folk who had problems with it.

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ms6073
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by ms6073

tarmackev wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:21 pm
I swear it was over half the time people had a problem with their height and if they were okay it seemed that over 90% thought they were taller than they were.
Most have a difficult time grasping the complexities of aging and its effects on physiology and in many cases, the only measurement of height a person has had was at a medical professionals office where the nurse asks them to stand next to a wall with a measuring tape or uses an extendable measuring arm from the weight scale they are standing on while wearing shoes! In my younger days, 40-years ago when I was measured by a physiologist at just shy of 6' and as time and lifes experiences have taken its toll, I was surprised a couple years ago to find I am now ~5' 10". Apparently spending 10+ years of ones life jumping out of perfectly good airplanes and hiking all over the globe carrying extremely heavy rucksacks can have that effect 20+ years later. :lol:
- Michael
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HammerTime2
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by HammerTime2

As George would say, aging can cause significant shrinkage.

Does height "shrinkage" with aging (for cyclists) tend to be in the upper body, and not the lower body? Therefore, saddle height (and perhaps setback) might not change much, but reach would be reduced? So for a given STA, need shorter top tube and/or stem (and maybe higher bar position), with reduced mid to upper body flexibility also contributing?

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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

HammerTime2 wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:27 pm
As George would say, aging can cause severe shrinkage.

Does height "shrinkage" with aging (for cyclists) tend to be in the upper body, and not the lower body? Therefore, saddle height (and perhaps setback) might not change much, but reach would be reduced? So for a given STA, need shorter top tube and/or stem (and maybe higher bar position), with reduced mid to upper body flexibility also contributing?

In terms of lost height, yes, most of it is the result of spinal compression.

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