Bikefit in 2023

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

Moderators: robbosmans, Moderator Team

User avatar
tarmackev
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:59 pm

by tarmackev

I'm putting this out there as I'm genuinley curious to people's thoughts.

I was a bike fitter for the best part of 10 years, Trek fit taught by Phil Cavil. Guru fit and Retul.
Although I did buy in to it in some ways in others I didn't, to put it simply if mm perfect fit is essential how can we go from road, to TT, to MTB, all with totally different positions and have no problems.
I'd always ridden 38mm bars and was always told how I was risking shoulder injury and breathing issues as I was too restricted.
I can ride pretty much any height at the front as long is my saddle height is within 5mm and the reach not too long.

In 2023 what's the feeling with bikefit, do people still swear by them? Are there still bike fitters who are rushed off their feet and it's almost a badge of honour with bragging rights if you go them? I see folk now needing a very specific bar and needing it to be the exact right shape. It seem's like bars have really gone up in importance to people.
Are people still getting bike fits on a regular basis?
What's the scuttlebutt?

User avatar
C36
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Can’t say for rushing or attention to detail, depends too much on who does the fit but few things I observed in the 4 countries I live / travel often enough (US - TX, Colombia, Spain and Switzerland):
I find quite a growing dichotomy between “more” fitting offers (regardless if good or not) and fit to be of very little use in frame choice: in huuuuge majority people already want one frame and the fitting result won’t make them change their mind and result with 80mm stems (or 130+) or tower of spacers when the fit should push them toward another frame. only two of the 15+ fitters I discussed with over last few years stands firm when a frame geometry is not made for a certain person.
I would like to see fitters taking a stand on how the rider fits between the two wheels. As few fitters told me « if the shop has no proper option or no availability we can’t loose a sell »

Interesting you mention being picky about the bars, does it includes the bar position (tilt) for wrist angle? Cause I find this being one part very often missing.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Karvalo
Posts: 3444
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

C36 wrote:
Tue Mar 07, 2023 7:40 pm
I find quite a growing dichotomy between “more” fitting offers (regardless if good or not) and fit to be of very little use in frame choice: in huuuuge majority people already want one frame and the fitting result won’t make them change their mind and result with 80mm stems (or 130+) or tower of spacers when the fit should push them toward another frame. only two of the 15+ fitters I discussed with over last few years stands firm when a frame geometry is not made for a certain person.
I would like to see fitters taking a stand on how the rider fits between the two wheels. As few fitters told me « if the shop has no proper option or no availability we can’t loose a sell »
What's the definition of standing firm?

There's a difference between compromising your integrity and giving wrong advice, and working with a customer to accommodate what they want after you've told them what they need.

If you've told a customer exactly why a bike is wrong for them, demonstrated how much less comfortable it will be than a bike that suits them, they understand what you've said but they still want the first one... why not sell it to them and set them up on it as best as possible? A) the shop is a business not a charity, B) they've paid for your time and it's up to them what they do with it. Bike fit customers are grown adults entitled to make their own decisions, even when those decisions are stupid.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

^ I would sell them the ill-fitting bike if they demanded, but I would not set it up outside service manual guidelines.

Here is a Domane RSL being set up with 17mm headset cover + 50mm worth of spacers when the stated limit is 40mm.

https://i.imgur.com/KsK9CmB.jpg

User avatar
C36
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Karvalo wrote: What's the definition of standing firm?
Being very clear, something like « this frame geometry is not made for you, to fit you on the frame you want will impact handling»
Karvalo wrote: There's a difference between compromising your integrity and giving wrong advice, and working with a customer to accommodate what they want after you've told them what they need.
The experience I was sharing was that this point is almost never mentioned, a mix of lack of knowledge and « lying by omission ». They do their job at fitting your 3 contact points but don’t go any further and I think this is a shame and a miss opportunity to at least educate Clients.

k33z
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 6:13 pm

by k33z

I cant get my head around 'bike fitting'. I absolutely believe that getting a correct fit is crucial. Most of it can be done by yourself when you dig a bit deeper and have some experience (also trail and error).

What I do not understand... if bike fitting was based on data, every bike fitter would set you up in the same way (looking at statistics, your body measurements, your goals, your body limitations, etc). But this is not the case.... every bike fitter has his or her own filosofy... Seat height, crank length, handlebar width, Q factor, etc.

Go to one bike fitter, then go to another and he / she will make adjustments. That is something I just cannot understand. :)

I do like bike fits, but it is not science based, it is just as much personal preference from the bike fitter.

Karvalo
Posts: 3444
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

C36 wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:00 am
Karvalo wrote: What's the definition of standing firm?
Being very clear, something like « this frame geometry is not made for you, to fit you on the frame you want will impact handling»
The genuine bike fitters (not just shop floor sizers) that I've worked with will all do this. Im sure there are some who advertise themselves as fitters won't, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't a minority.

As said though - if the customer still insists they want that bike, absolutely do sell it to them. Their money their choice, lead a horse to water, etc etc.

User avatar
C36
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Karvalo wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:07 pm
C36 wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:00 am
Karvalo wrote: What's the definition of standing firm?
Being very clear, something like « this frame geometry is not made for you, to fit you on the frame you want will impact handling»
The genuine bike fitters (not just shop floor sizers) that I've worked with will all do this. Im sure there are some who advertise themselves as fitters won't, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't a minority.

As said though - if the customer still insists they want that bike, absolutely do sell it to them. Their money their choice, lead a horse to water, etc etc.
Few do, I wish it be the norm. Now, nothing you can do against someone who decide not to follow advices.
How much of a conflict of interest is it to have supply issues when recommending a frame size

Karvalo
Posts: 3444
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:40 pm

by Karvalo

C36 wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:37 pm
Few do,
Not my experience.

jlok
Posts: 2400
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

My fitter even went as far as designing my custom bike.

Speaking about handlebar, he didn't mention anything about it but highly recommended to stay at the suggested stem length and saddle to bar drop, as if handlebar reach doesn't really matter.
Rikulau V9 DB Custom < BMC TM02 < Litespeed T1sl Disc < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

boots2000
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:28 pm

by boots2000

I don't think much has changed other than some fitters are big on Youtube and/or Instagram.
There is a lot to unpack here.
Certainly there are many fitters and types of fitters, you will get different suggestions from each one.
Also different goals of fitters. A bike shop fitter will want to sell you their bikes.And their mindiset is "I can make it fit".
An independent fitter may be more agnostic, but they also might be looking to sell you bars, stems, saddles, cranks and sometimes even shoes and insoles that they sell. Others might want to sell you a custom frame and convince you that you really need one.
So mostly you need to find a fitter who's philosophy and goals mimic your own.

apr46
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:46 pm

by apr46

The lack of science in bike fitting is a problem. There is so much science in how to collect the measurements (e.g., dynamic vs. static measurements has ~dozen peer reviewed papers), but very little on physiology. You end up with a bunch of junk data.

A lot of really well regarded fitters are doing it based on experience of what works as coaches rather than understanding of the human body. The rare fitter that is a physiotherapist has yielded me better results. My best results were using the myvelofit app to collect measurements and a Wahoo Kickr Bike to make adjustments in service of stabilizing my hips and keeping my knees tracking vertically; but I was already working from a pretty good fit and starting point.

Regarding handlebars and fits for different disciplines, I eventually designed my own road bike as an experiment. Fit was part of that as it was difficult to acheive with an off the shelf frame. The road bike is 33mm lower and 25mm longer at the bars vs. my gravel bike. The bars themselves are an Enve SES Aero 40cm with the shifters turned in (31cm at the middle of the hoods) vs. a Vision 4D MAS in 40cm (37cm at the middle of the hoods).

I probably wouldnt want to more than 7-8 hours on the road bike and have done close to 20 hours on the gravel bike, but a very different front end position between the two. Saddle in relation to the BB is in the same spot. FTP measured both via multiple ramp and 20min tests is the same.

User avatar
C36
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Karvalo wrote:
C36 wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2023 2:37 pm
Few do,
Not my experience.
Genuinely curious to know where are you based and how many fitters have you seen getting involved into frame geometry.
Glad to read there are more even if statistically it doesn’t match my experience (2/15+).

StumpMan
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:46 pm

by StumpMan

tarmackev wrote:
Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:11 pm
I'm putting this out there as I'm genuinley curious to people's thoughts.

I was a bike fitter for the best part of 10 years, Trek fit taught by Phil Cavil. Guru fit and Retul.
Although I did buy in to it in some ways in others I didn't, to put it simply if mm perfect fit is essential how can we go from road, to TT, to MTB, all with totally different positions and have no problems.
I'd always ridden 38mm bars and was always told how I was risking shoulder injury and breathing issues as I was too restricted.
I can ride pretty much any height at the front as long is my saddle height is within 5mm and the reach not too long.

In 2023 what's the feeling with bikefit, do people still swear by them? Are there still bike fitters who are rushed off their feet and it's almost a badge of honour with bragging rights if you go them? I see folk now needing a very specific bar and needing it to be the exact right shape. It seem's like bars have really gone up in importance to people.
Are people still getting bike fits on a regular basis?
What's the scuttlebutt?

As a bike fitter, I've seen a lot of people who have taken to this job with very little perspective for the athletes/persons body. Bike fitting systems are much of a muchness, meaning that a great bike fitter will fit you well with any system. The system shouldn't be used to tell you 'why' you need to make adjustments. That's down to the fitter, their knowledge, experience and understanding.

Saying going narrower is a risk but I've found the opposite to be true in real world situations, solving pains in the shoulder/neck/hands with a narrower bar.

I think that's the difference between a bike fit that has been lead by numbers and one that is lead by your asymmetries, strength in range, range of movement, requirements, pains, problems, etc.

With 10 years experience as a bike fitter. I've used Retul as a bike fitting system. This helps offer data to show any changes we make. It's not bikefit-by-numbers.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



StumpMan
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:46 pm

by StumpMan

apr46 wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:03 pm
The lack of science in bike fitting is a problem. There is so much science in how to collect the measurements (e.g., dynamic vs. static measurements has ~dozen peer reviewed papers), but very little on physiology. You end up with a bunch of junk data.

A lot of really well regarded fitters are doing it based on experience of what works as coaches rather than understanding of the human body. The rare fitter that is a physiotherapist has yielded me better results. My best results were using the myvelofit app to collect measurements and a Wahoo Kickr Bike to make adjustments in service of stabilizing my hips and keeping my knees tracking vertically; but I was already working from a pretty good fit and starting point.

I agree that not enough use science or know how to test people.

Saying a physio would do a better job is a very broad stroke of a brush.

Some people have a good understanding of their body and others don't. Helping people learn is a big part of my job that I love.

Having fitted people with a range of challenges such replacement/resurfaced hips to debilitating spinal conditions, from those and to the wind tunnel with some of the fastest people in the world. Experience helps you get to the right position with an athlete.

Post Reply