RIM BRAKE FRAMES = OBSOLETE!

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

Moderators: robbosmans, Moderator Team

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

tymon_tm wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 3:15 pm
IMHO rim brake high end bikes will return, for two reasons mostly - 1) to come back to pursuing lesser weight 2) to heat up demand once again

What a hollow/empty statement. In what capacity will rim-brake bikes return?

Will mainstream brands bring back high-end rim-brake bikes that were previously discontinued? No.

Will boutique/custom builders keep making rim-brake bikes? Yes, but they never stopped, so these bikes aren't "returning." They never left in the first place.

Will Shimano and SRAM kill rim-brake DA/Ultegra and Red/Force very soon? Most likely.

Will Campagnolo keep making rim-brake SR/Record/Chorus for some time? Also likely.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



jasjas
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:15 am

by jasjas

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 7:04 am
tymon_tm wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 3:15 pm
IMHO rim brake high end bikes will return, for two reasons mostly - 1) to come back to pursuing lesser weight 2) to heat up demand once again

What a hollow/empty statement. In what capacity will rim-brake bikes return?

Will mainstream brands bring back high-end rim-brake bikes that were previously discontinued? No.

Will boutique/custom builders keep making rim-brake bikes? Yes, but they never stopped, so these bikes aren't "returning." They never left in the first place.

Will Shimano and SRAM kill rim-brake DA/Ultegra and Red/Force very soon? Most likely.

Will Campagnolo keep making rim-brake SR/Record/Chorus for some time? Also likely.
100% its like thinking manufacturers will bring back downtube shifters, i think some manufacturers will make rim frames but if shimano don't release another hi end rim groupset, that will stop.

the only outlier seems to be Giant, still do top end rim frames and bikes, i didn't think they would for 2023.

djemz
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:45 am

by djemz

I have a rim brake and disc brake bike. And I don't understand thebreactions that you have to push the lever harder on rim brakes..

If your rim brake is set up nice like it should with good brake pads I don't feel a difference. I can lock the wheels with 1 finger.

Only reason why I love disc brakes is that it doesn't damage the wheel in wet conditions, brakes a lot better IN WET conditions, safer in long descents and I can ride carbon wheels all year.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn AC2003 met Tapatalk



User avatar
Kayrehn
Posts: 1776
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:06 pm

by Kayrehn

I can't bear to let go of my rim brake Colnago C60 because it's still pretty in my eyes and suits my every need. I really don't think components will not be available when I need replacement, even know you can find 9-10speed stuff on ebay too. Resale value will be lower but that's always inevitable with age.

(No talk about braking technique and performance please, otherwise this thread is gonna get closed down!)





Flasher
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:10 pm

by Flasher

Can't imagine rim brake frames ever being obsolete, obviously the high end bike brands want to keep making mad money on their mid/high end ranges so in their interest to keep them disc/electronic, that will only leave room for Chinese companies to fill the gap, Microshift, Sensah etc. look at how Farsport and Winspace wheels are now a mainstream choice.

User avatar
wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

inertianinja wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 7:24 pm
smartyiak wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:43 pm
inertianinja wrote:
Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:19 pm
...and holy crap if they aren't worlds better than my rim brake bikes. Nearly sent myself over the bars on the first ride because i was used to pulling harder.
I don't get how this is "world's better." I can lock up the wheels with my rim brakes...that's as good as brakes need to be. I understand the pros of disc brakes (less over heating, better/longer life rims, arguably better modulation, etc.), but I don't see "lack of braking power on rim brakes" as one of them.

I've said it a million times: I don't live in the mountains, so I see no need for disc brakes; the negatives outweigh the positives. I bled my mtb brakes the other day. That took longer than the total time I've spent adjusting my rim brakes over the last 10years.
I had the same thought initially, I can lock up rim brake bikes, how could disc be better? The "worlds better" for me was the very low amount of effort needed for the same braking power. I don't ride in the mountains - I'm in NYC, so panic braking is more important to me than the heat dissipation thing. being able to barely tap the brakes and get serious stopping power made me understand and be willing to deal with the disc brake maintenance BS.

I do agree that bleeding is annoying. Setting up my ostro with zero hydraulic experience was a pain, but after a few tries i got the hang of it. Still definitely more BS than i've had to do on rim brake bikes in years, but not the end of the world.
Is this your first time you use disc brakes?
If so, how could you even be against it to begin with. To be, you should have experience with both systems.
You need to understand that some people have experience with two systems and still prefer rim brakes.
That easy it is and will be.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

User avatar
Juanmoretime
Administrator
Posts: 289
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:08 am

by Juanmoretime

Going to discs on road was not too tough since I dealt with disc brakes on the mtb side for many years. I just needed to learn the SRAM eTap hydro system. I like it. I still have 2 bikes with rim brakes that are not going anywhere. I

bikeboy1tr
Posts: 1395
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

Kayrehn wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 1:36 pm
I can't bear to let go of my rim brake Colnago C60 because it's still pretty in my eyes and suits my every need. I really don't think components will not be available when I need replacement, even know you can find 9-10speed stuff on ebay too. Resale value will be lower but that's always inevitable with age.

(No talk about braking technique and performance please, otherwise this thread is gonna get closed down!)
I would be surprised if this doesnt get shut down as it always ends up being a feud. I thought we had a pinned thread just for this very topic that everyone can have at it and avoid seeing this topic reintroduced every couple weeks.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=154188
2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
2019 Colnago V2R Disc Brake
2014 Norco Threshold Disc Brake
2006 Ridley Crosswind Rim Brake

flying
Posts: 2861
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:16 am

by flying

jasjas wrote:
Wed Dec 28, 2022 12:00 pm
100% its like thinking manufacturers will bring back downtube shifters, i think some manufacturers will make rim frames but if shimano don't release another hi end rim groupset, that will stop.

the only outlier seems to be Giant, still do top end rim frames and bikes, i didn't think they would for 2023.
I don't agree as DT friction shifters was a horse of a different color & switching to index DT or brake lever shifting didn't require a new frame

As to Giant yes they are one but not alone
Factor O2 Vam, Trek Emonda & I imagine others still offer rim but have not bothered to look

But people tend to think many things are set in stone. The market will decide what comes back or not to many manufacturers.

Lastly I would say 2023 is going to be very interesting in the Cycling Industry with major companies having major financial problems plus a bunch of new smaller companies coming in & eating a lot rice out of the big boys bowls

But lets wait & see then look back next year at this time :thumbup:

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

flying wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 11:41 am

I don't agree as DT friction shifters was a horse of a different color & switching to index DT or brake lever shifting didn't require a new frame

As to Giant yes they are one but not alone
Factor O2 Vam, Trek Emonda & I imagine others still offer rim but have not bothered to look

But people tend to think many things are set in stone. The market will decide what comes back or not to many manufacturers.

Lastly I would say 2023 is going to be very interesting in the Cycling Industry with major companies having major financial problems plus a bunch of new smaller companies coming in & eating a lot rice out of the big boys bowls

But lets wait & see then look back next year at this time :thumbup:
The current Emonda is not offered with rim brakes. Only the 2017 era one…and only as a frameset. The O2 is similarly old and highly doubt the next O2 will have a rim-brake option.

None of the big brands are resurrecting rim brakes on current disc-only models.
This is current generation of DA/Ultegra and Red/Force are likely the last with rim-brake support.
ENVE is done with rim-brake rims, Zipp is close…their rim-brake offerings are just graphics updates of previous designs. HED doesn’t make its Vanquish line for rim brakes.

If you want to rim brakes, your practical options in the near future are going to be Campy, low-end, NOS or these upcoming Chinese brands. So far I have not been impressed at all by Sensah or Ltwoo’s offerings. Similarly I got burned by Magene’s terrible P325CS crowdfunding campaign. They’re rushing to market without proper R&D and QC because, we’ll, that costs money.

We can argue semantically about what obsolescence means, but we can't argue that the sales trends are going to be continually downward, especially on the high-end. Most of the damage was done in the last 4 years, so of course the trend will slow, but it won't ever stop pointing down.

flying
Posts: 2861
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:16 am

by flying

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:41 am

The current Emonda is not offered with rim brakes. Only the 2017 era one…and only as a frameset. The O2 is similarly old and highly doubt the next O2 will have a rim-brake option.

If you want to rim brakes, your practical options in the near future are going to be Campy, low-end, NOS or these upcoming Chinese brands.

but we can't argue that the sales trends are going to be continually downward,
Yes I was answering previous poster who said
"the only outlier seems to be Giant, still do top end rim frames and bikes, i didn't think they would for 2023. "

Available is available & yes newer years may have now been disc only with some brands so of course those years were not available rim version but that is not a dead end as some do not want those period but as I also said market will decide & nothing is set in stone.

Markets dictate period
Companies went all in & surprise or not this year will see many big boys nearly or completely going under. I am not saying it is the fault of disc but it is partially the fault of misreading the market

Perhaps your crystal ball/future sales trends says otherwise but me I dunno & I stand by my ...lets see next year at this time what is "actually" happening. :wink:

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

flying wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 7:32 am

Markets dictate period
Companies went all in & surprise or not this year will see many big boys nearly or completely going under. I am not saying it is the fault of disc but it is partially the fault of misreading the market

Perhaps your crystal ball/future sales trends says otherwise but me I dunno & I stand by my ...lets see next year at this time what is "actually" happening. :wink:

You should read BRAIN more often.

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/industr ... mic-levels

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/interna ... e-quarters

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/interna ... owth-13-q3

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/industr ... p-sales-44

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/industr ... rd-quarter

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/interna ... iscal-year

Yes some sub-categories like indoor training and services are suffering greatly, but each has slightly different reasons. Wahoo was bought in a leveraged buyout, which rarely ever turns out well. Saris and Peloton failed to anticipate the COVID bubble. Other brands seem to be doing fine fiscally…for now.

And none of this has anything to do with rim vs disc, more general supply chain issues and waning overall demand. I’d be fairly confident in saying that continual supply chain and demand crunches will accelerate the demise of rim-brake equipment. Rim-brake bikes from several years ago are still wasting away at the local bike shops in my area. Nobody wants them. Discounted xcess disc-brake bike inventory is going to make rim-brake bikes even less appealing. When you prune a sickly fruit tree you cut off the old, weak, dying appendages so they aren’t a waste of resources.

My friend manages a local shop…she’s basically asked brand X to stop sending her 1) any black bikes and 2) the rim-brake bikes.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

Singular
Posts: 537
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:59 am

by Singular

The market has decided - several times.

The disc brake road bike is a natural evolution, not necessarily for the braking itself but for the design freedom and options that it offers. Now tire width/size is limited almost solely by where crankset/front derailleur is blocking it, the hydraulic lines (don't get me started on those SRAM hydro rim brakes, Tom...) in combination with electronic makes more or less any type of tight/internal/integrated routing possible without any compromise in functionality and the lack of braking demand on rims make for great potential in shape, construction and width.

It is not very different from when the mountainbike side of the business decided to let go of the front derailleur which essentially changed the game for full-suspension designs.

What IS impressive and important is that it is a consumer-centric product that moved up to the competitive/professional use and not the other way round (and with that said, not necessarily to the professionals' liking...).

And as always, my caveat: I'm solely on rim-brake drop-bar bikes. Not because it is better, but the best option for me. If I (God forbid) was to lose all my bikes and wheels and stuff overnight and have them replaced with a pot of gold, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to go all discs.

flying
Posts: 2861
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:16 am

by flying

Singular wrote:
Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:11 am
The market has decided - several times.
Actually I would say the industry decided to try force feed something that required a total reset of consumers

Whether or not that works in their favor remains to be seen
Market decision takes time to see the actual result.

But I do think as I said this will be an interesting year to watch

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Most markets will be interesting as we head into a global recession, but it has literally nothing to do with rim vs disc. Disc-brake road sales overtook rim-brake road sales in 2017 (MY2018) according to both Dave Lawrence at Shimano and Michael Zellman at SRAM. For that year, disc road represented 67% of SRAM’s road bike share. In 2018, it was >80%. In 2019, ~90%. It’s now 2023.

When a company is under pressure to streamline and simplify its portfolio, think of which categories might be dead weight. Is it disc road which now represents something like 96% of all road sales, or is it … something else? Did Coca-Cola Company kill Coca-Cola or did it kill Tab in 2020?

Remember that Trek actually spent the R&D on a rim-brake MY2019 Madone SLR. It flopped.

Post Reply