RIM BRAKE FRAMES = OBSOLETE!

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

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blutto
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:09 pm

by blutto

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:37 pm
I’m still amazed someone thinks they can feel one ten-thousandths of a second. And yes, that’s all in your head.
....you really should get together with spdntrxi and work this out....

Cheers

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12455
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

I’m not sure where you’re trying to go with this. I feel pretty confident in saying you can’t detect .0001s lag…you only think you do.

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gurk700
Posts: 956
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:40 pm

by gurk700

Looks like the thread got out of hand (shocking)
To go back to topic though, if you're like me and keep coming back to rim brakes, good news is you can build 3-4 rim brake bikes and even have some spare carbon wheels on top of those for the price of 1 S-works SL7 or the new Supersix or insert any brand / model, really.
That should last you a lifetime. So no worries.

eli76141
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:43 pm

by eli76141

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:50 pm
eli76141 wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 8:47 pm

Exactly. Nobody says it's a tech issue.

bobones backed off the term modulation, but still claims disc brakes have worse “lever feel.”

blutto is even more specifically suggesting that braking forces traveling through deflecting, elongating, resonating spokes is causing a muted brake feel and/or lag.
Exactly. They talk about feel, not tech.

And I agree so far, that you get more feedback from rimbrakes. If it's wet, the braking is different, which you feel immediately. You have to soft-brake a little bit earlier to get the water of the rim. This means you have to adjust the power and timing accordingly. You even hear a different sound, since you hear the water coming off the rim.

But back to the point. There is a reason ABS was invented. And that is because people can't be trusted not to panic.

Have you ever panicked on a bike, Tobin?

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12455
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

And what supposedly causes this inferior feel? The bogeyman?

eli76141
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:43 pm

by eli76141

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 8:18 am
And what supposedly causes this inferior feel? The bogeyman?
inferior feel? Who said anything about inferior feel? More straw men, Tobin?

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12455
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

eli76141 wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 8:41 am

inferior feel? Who said anything about inferior feel? More straw men, Tobin?

Do you now speak for blutto and bobones and retract their statements? If so, great.

eli76141
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:43 pm

by eli76141

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 8:51 am
eli76141 wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 8:41 am

inferior feel? Who said anything about inferior feel? More straw men, Tobin?

Do you now speak for blutto and bobones and retract their statements? If so, great.
Can we get back on topic? It's much more interesting talking about rimbrake bikes than arguing

Singular
Posts: 537
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:59 am

by Singular

eli76141 wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 8:06 am


Exactly. They talk about feel, not tech.

And I agree so far, that you get more feedback from rimbrakes. If it's wet, the braking is different, which you feel immediately. You have to soft-brake a little bit earlier to get the water of the rim. This means you have to adjust the power and timing accordingly. You even hear a different sound, since you hear the water coming off the rim.

But back to the point. There is a reason ABS was invented. And that is because people can't be trusted not to panic.

Have you ever panicked on a bike, Tobin?
Ah, cmon, don't try to make the need to wipe water off carbon rims a feature of rim brakes...!

If there is one single thing that's a major flaw and drawback that I'd happily exclude from using rim brakes, that's the one.

eli76141
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:43 pm

by eli76141

Singular wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 9:38 am
eli76141 wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 8:06 am


Exactly. They talk about feel, not tech.

And I agree so far, that you get more feedback from rimbrakes. If it's wet, the braking is different, which you feel immediately. You have to soft-brake a little bit earlier to get the water of the rim. This means you have to adjust the power and timing accordingly. You even hear a different sound, since you hear the water coming off the rim.

But back to the point. There is a reason ABS was invented. And that is because people can't be trusted not to panic.

Have you ever panicked on a bike, Tobin?
Ah, cmon, don't try to make the need to wipe water off carbon rims a feature of rim brakes...!

If there is one single thing that's a major flaw and drawback that I'd happily exclude from using rim brakes, that's the one.
I'm not making it a feature. Jesus.

I'm just saying, it is something that you feel and hear. If anything it is annoying. But I've been used to it for many years, so it's not really a big deal. It doesn't prevent me from stopping the bike. And it hasn't lead me to crash the bike either.

The point that led to this subtopic was, that when ppl panic while riding disc brakes it more oftens leads to a crash, since disc brakes brake easily lock the rear wheel. That doesn't happen so often when riding rimbrakes - simply because they don't brake as effective as discs. If you have any experience in that regard, bring it to the table.

bobones
Posts: 1271
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 8:51 am
eli76141 wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 8:41 am

inferior feel? Who said anything about inferior feel? More straw men, Tobin?

Do you now speak for blutto and bobones and retract their statements? If so, great.
Retract FA. Feel is totally subjective. As long as you can accept that rim brakes and disc can feel different at the lever, then how can I be wrong if I prefer the feel of (some) rim brakes over my discs?

blutto
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:09 pm

by blutto

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:40 pm
Of course a disc-brake wheel needs to be built stiffer to protect itself from destruction, but to suggest you can feel those differences under braking it is hilarious. Even if we include aspects you did not mention like pad movement inside the caliper, we’re talking about *maybe* 1mm worth of play, aka 1mm of lag in terms of stopping distance. Aka .0001 seconds at 30km/h going from a perfectly designed rigid disc-brake+wheel system to what we have in real life.

If you can feel this difference as a muted/unresponsive braking feel, congratulations.

Now consider the friction and elongation in a cable-actuated brake vs non-compressible fluid in a hydro brake as well, and this discussion becomes even more ridiculous.
....you still haven't answered my query about how the use of disc brakes can destruct front wheels....which oddly enough is not an issue with the use of rim brake systems....

Cheers

spdntrxi
Posts: 5789
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

blutto wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 4:14 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:40 pm
Of course a disc-brake wheel needs to be built stiffer to protect itself from destruction, but to suggest you can feel those differences under braking it is hilarious. Even if we include aspects you did not mention like pad movement inside the caliper, we’re talking about *maybe* 1mm worth of play, aka 1mm of lag in terms of stopping distance. Aka .0001 seconds at 30km/h going from a perfectly designed rigid disc-brake+wheel system to what we have in real life.

If you can feel this difference as a muted/unresponsive braking feel, congratulations.

Now consider the friction and elongation in a cable-actuated brake vs non-compressible fluid in a hydro brake as well, and this discussion becomes even more ridiculous.
....you still haven't answered my query about how the use of disc brakes can destruct front wheels....which oddly enough is not an issue with the use of rim brake systems....

Cheers
anywheel needs be built stiff enough not to self destruct, he's just saying the db wheel needs to be built different then a rb wheel. Why is this a struggle to understand, when the physics is different.
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blutto
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:09 pm

by blutto

spdntrxi wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 4:30 pm
blutto wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 4:14 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:40 pm
Of course a disc-brake wheel needs to be built stiffer to protect itself from destruction, but to suggest you can feel those differences under braking it is hilarious. Even if we include aspects you did not mention like pad movement inside the caliper, we’re talking about *maybe* 1mm worth of play, aka 1mm of lag in terms of stopping distance. Aka .0001 seconds at 30km/h going from a perfectly designed rigid disc-brake+wheel system to what we have in real life.

If you can feel this difference as a muted/unresponsive braking feel, congratulations.

Now consider the friction and elongation in a cable-actuated brake vs non-compressible fluid in a hydro brake as well, and this discussion becomes even more ridiculous.
....you still haven't answered my query about how the use of disc brakes can destruct front wheels....which oddly enough is not an issue with the use of rim brake systems....

Cheers
anywheel needs be built stiff enough not to self destruct, he's just saying the db wheel needs to be built different then a rb wheel. Why is this a struggle to understand, when the physics is different.
....speaking of struggles to understand, how is it that you look at the bit I bolded and come up with different when it quite clearly says stiffer ( I can see from a photo its different but what I would like to know is why it should be made stiffer and why the addition of a disc brake system to a wheel could put that wheel in danger of destruction )....and stiffer to provide protection from destruction, really !? liability lawyers are going to have a field day with that idea....and yet we have a claim this increase in stiffness will not possibly be felt when action is applied across it when it is well known that all lacing patterns have an obviously different feel....yet this invisible/undetectable stiffness thing certainly becomes quite prominent when someone is trying to sell the idea that stiffness in the front end requires fatter and fatter tires ( or is that also because the forks and rear triangle have to be made much stiffer to accomodate a disc assembly at the hub ).... and speaking of the cumulative aero effect of fat tires and stiffer lacing patterns why do something that fairly significantly reduces the aerodynamics of the bike's leading edge, oh yeah, the front wheel could destruct and one could be placed in mortal danger in the ensuing crash...

.....and rim bikes are being made obsolete because , well because, and the physics are apparently somehow different these days ?, like do disc brake bikes operate in a different modern reality governed by different physical laws or something ?....

Cheers

spdntrxi
Posts: 5789
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

you cant be helped
2024 BMC TeamMachine R Building
2018 BMC TImeMachine Road
2002 Moots Compact-SL- getting aero look makeover
2019 Parlee Z0XD - "classified"
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Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

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