RIM BRAKE FRAMES = OBSOLETE!

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

bobones wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 10:21 am
Retract FA. Feel is totally subjective. As long as you can accept that rim brakes and disc can feel different at the lever, then how can I be wrong if I prefer the feel of (some) rim brakes over my discs?

See how easy that was? All you needed to say from the start was “I prefer rim brakes.” Zero judgement.

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tarmackev
Posts: 899
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by tarmackev

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 9:33 pm
bobones wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 10:21 am
Retract FA. Feel is totally subjective. As long as you can accept that rim brakes and disc can feel different at the lever, then how can I be wrong if I prefer the feel of (some) rim brakes over my discs?

See how easy that was? All you needed to say from the start was “I prefer rim brakes.” Zero judgement.
I prefer rim, the weight, the look, the price. That being said on some roads it really is soooo much easier with a disc brake. I can use two fingers and gently apply preasure, on the rim brake I'm grabbing a handfull and at times the lever pulls all the way back to the bar.

Thinking about it it's probably the price thats the game changer. I can build a super light pro level rim bike for under £1000. I can't imagine I can get the top level disc frame, wheels and SRAM Red or DA groupset, even a couple of years old and second hand for under £4000.

That's one positive about disc bikes, they've allowed me to buy rim brake dream bikes for peanuts.

I wonder if there's a correlation between income and rim brake lovers. Money no question I wonder what people would choose. I'd go disc.

blutto
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:09 pm

by blutto

spdntrxi wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 9:19 pm
you cant be helped
...well of course I can but it would have to be someone who has the capability and some knowledge ( so definitely not you ) and the willingness ( so definitely not TobinLovesHimself ...)

Cheers

warthog101
Posts: 872
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:05 am

by warthog101

blutto wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 8:38 pm


....speaking of struggles to understand, how is it that you look at the bit I bolded and come up with different when it quite clearly says stiffer ( I can see from a photo its different but what I would like to know is why it should be made stiffer and why the addition of a disc brake system to a wheel could put that wheel in danger of destruction )....and stiffer to provide protection from destruction, really !? liability lawyers are going to have a field day with that idea....and yet we have a claim this increase in stiffness will not possibly be felt when action is applied across it when it is well known that all lacing patterns have an obviously different feel....yet this invisible/undetectable stiffness thing certainly becomes quite prominent when someone is trying to sell the idea that stiffness in the front end requires fatter and fatter tires ( or is that also because the forks and rear triangle have to be made much stiffer to accomodate a disc assembly at the hub ).... and speaking of the cumulative aero effect of fat tires and stiffer lacing patterns why do something that fairly significantly reduces the aerodynamics of the bike's leading edge, oh yeah, the front wheel could destruct and one could be placed in mortal danger in the ensuing crash...

.....and rim bikes are being made obsolete because , well because, and the physics are apparently somehow different these days ?, like do disc brake bikes operate in a different modern reality governed by different physical laws or something ?....

Cheers
If wide tyres "fairly significantly reduces the aerodynamics of the bike's leading edge", why are race speeds still climbing and overall times dropping?
Perhaps the bikes aren't less aerodynamic and slower overall.

Rim brakes and carbon wheels are not a good combination. Heat affecting the structural integrity of the rim where it is needed to keep the tyre bead in place.
Shite performance when the rim is wet.
Wear on what is in many cases a fairly expensive component.
Rim brakes render carbon wheels less reliable and shorter life span if ridden in the wet.
Carbon wheels are very popular. Personally discs make far more sense on carbon.

Also what other popular wheeled transport uses a pair of rubber blocks that squeezes the outside of the wheel to slow the bike?

The market has made it's choice in terms of drop bar road bikes it appears to me, but we are all free to ride what we like.

blutto
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:09 pm

by blutto

warthog101 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 12:54 pm
blutto wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 8:38 pm


....speaking of struggles to understand, how is it that you look at the bit I bolded and come up with different when it quite clearly says stiffer ( I can see from a photo its different but what I would like to know is why it should be made stiffer and why the addition of a disc brake system to a wheel could put that wheel in danger of destruction )....and stiffer to provide protection from destruction, really !? liability lawyers are going to have a field day with that idea....and yet we have a claim this increase in stiffness will not possibly be felt when action is applied across it when it is well known that all lacing patterns have an obviously different feel....yet this invisible/undetectable stiffness thing certainly becomes quite prominent when someone is trying to sell the idea that stiffness in the front end requires fatter and fatter tires ( or is that also because the forks and rear triangle have to be made much stiffer to accomodate a disc assembly at the hub ).... and speaking of the cumulative aero effect of fat tires and stiffer lacing patterns why do something that fairly significantly reduces the aerodynamics of the bike's leading edge, oh yeah, the front wheel could destruct and one could be placed in mortal danger in the ensuing crash...

.....and rim bikes are being made obsolete because , well because, and the physics are apparently somehow different these days ?, like do disc brake bikes operate in a different modern reality governed by different physical laws or something ?....

Cheers
If wide tyres "fairly significantly reduces the aerodynamics of the bike's leading edge", why are race speeds still climbing and overall times dropping?
Perhaps the bikes aren't less aerodynamic and slower overall.


Rim brakes and carbon wheels are not a good combination. Heat affecting the structural integrity of the rim where it is needed to keep the tyre bead in place.
Shite performance when the rim is wet.
Wear on what is in many cases a fairly expensive component.
Rim brakes render carbon wheels less reliable and shorter life span if ridden in the wet.
Carbon wheels are very popular. Personally discs make far more sense on carbon.

Also what other popular wheeled transport uses a pair of rubber blocks that squeezes the outside of the wheel to slow the bike?

The market has made it's choice in terms of drop bar road bikes it appears to me, but we are all free to ride what we like.
...you seem to have conveniently forgot to include the obvious bit about cummulative where the bigger difference would be the spoking pattern....and even given that a bike could still be more aero if other parts of the bike more than make up the difference ( which has recently has a lot of effort to accomplish same... )...

...and why are speeds still climbing and times dropping.....uhhhh, mo most more bettah, errrr, " training " methods ?....

Cheers

warthog101
Posts: 872
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:05 am

by warthog101

blutto wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 1:06 pm


...you seem to have conveniently forgot to include the obvious bit about cummulative where the bigger difference would be the spoking pattern....and even given that a bike could still be more aero if other parts of the bike more than make up the difference ( which has recently has a lot of effort to accomplish same... )...

...and why are speeds still climbing and times dropping.....uhhhh, mo most more bettah, errrr, " training " methods ?....

Cheers
Speeds are still climbing. The bikes clearly ain't slower.

I still ride 2 carbon wheeled rim brake roadies.
Haven't got the spare cash for a new roadie, other stuff to spend it on.
Every single new bike in the bunch here is disc.
I am not noticing myself faster compared to those who swap their rim for disc.... anything but :cry: :lol:

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
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Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

Wasn't it a female team riding rim brakes at this years Paris Roubaix?
Yeah, disc brakes are better in the wet. Modulation is better if the levers/ resorvoirs doesn't get funky (mine does, so the lever needs to go all way towards handlebar).
On the other hand, i know it's personal, but with todays premium bikes cost, i am not sure i would dare to take it out when i know the risk for a crash (sliding, no tire grip or black ice) is very likely. I guess i would dare to use a metal frame, also more upright position. I tend to cramp (not stretch out) when it feel the roads are rather nerving to ride.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

blutto
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:09 pm

by blutto

warthog101 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 1:22 pm
blutto wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 1:06 pm


...you seem to have conveniently forgot to include the obvious bit about cummulative where the bigger difference would be the spoking pattern....and even given that a bike could still be more aero if other parts of the bike more than make up the difference ( which has recently has a lot of effort to accomplish same... )...

...and why are speeds still climbing and times dropping.....uhhhh, mo most more bettah, errrr, " training " methods ?....

Cheers
Speeds are still climbing. The bikes clearly ain't slower.

I still ride 2 carbon wheeled rim brake roadies.
Haven't got the spare cash for a new roadie, other stuff to spend it on.
Every single new bike in the bunch here is disc.
I am not noticing myself faster compared to those who swap their rim for disc.... anything but :cry: :lol:
...and all those new bikes are likely to be aero massaged enough to make up for the loss of the leading edge aero that I was mentioning...we are talking about 15-20 watts, which may not make a marked difference in your group ride but would count in a race, or at higher speeds...

Cheers

warthog101
Posts: 872
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:05 am

by warthog101

blutto wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 7:50 pm

...and all those new bikes are likely to be aero massaged enough to make up for the loss of the leading edge aero that I was mentioning...we are talking about 15-20 watts, which may not make a marked difference in your group ride but would count in a race, or at higher speeds...

Cheers
Were that the case, race speeds would not be climbing, or overall elapsed times dropping.
There are still swap offs and attacks on some of the rides.
The disc riders are not any slower since they swapped to disc.
Sorry, your theory is simply not borne out by the results.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

warthog101 wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 3:23 am

Were that the case, race speeds would not be climbing, or overall elapsed times dropping.
There are still swap offs and attacks on some of the rides.
The disc riders are not any slower since they swapped to disc.
Sorry, your theory is simply not borne out by the results.

Not just the pros… all the major area Strava KOMs are continuously falling. Maybe all the local racers are pumped full of exogenous T too then.

Seriously…on Saturday during Berkeley Hills RR (run since 1957,) a handful of us set the KOM on Pumphouse. It was a calm day and we weren’t even allowed to supertuck. The previous KOM was set in the 2022 edition. This segment has seen 125757 attempts by 17817 people. Speeds are trending up in all races every year. The 2022 edition of another local race, Dunnigan Hills, was the fastest ever.

blutto
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:09 pm

by blutto

warthog101 wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 3:23 am
blutto wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 7:50 pm

...and all those new bikes are likely to be aero massaged enough to make up for the loss of the leading edge aero that I was mentioning...we are talking about 15-20 watts, which may not make a marked difference in your group ride but would count in a race, or at higher speeds...

Cheers
Were that the case, race speeds would not be climbing, or overall elapsed times dropping.
There are still swap offs and attacks on some of the rides.
The disc riders are not any slower since they swapped to disc.
Sorry, your theory is simply not borne out by the results.
...so you're saying that aero bikes really aren't that aero....ok....you win....

Cheers

blutto
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:09 pm

by blutto

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 4:58 am
warthog101 wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 3:23 am

Were that the case, race speeds would not be climbing, or overall elapsed times dropping.
There are still swap offs and attacks on some of the rides.
The disc riders are not any slower since they swapped to disc.
Sorry, your theory is simply not borne out by the results.

Not just the pros… all the major area Strava KOMs are continuously falling. Maybe all the local racers are pumped full of exogenous T too then.

Seriously…on Saturday during Berkeley Hills RR (run since 1957,) a handful of us set the KOM on Pumphouse. It was a calm day and we weren’t even allowed to supertuck. The previous KOM was set in the 2022 edition. This segment has seen 125757 attempts by 17817 people. Speeds are trending up in all races every year. The 2022 edition of another local race, Dunnigan Hills, was the fastest ever.
.....and about a recent speed improvement thingee...."Aero helmets are the most cost effective pieces of equipment when it comes to better aerodynamics. Having the right helmet, along with optimizing your position overall, can save you minutes in your next race."....so you get some free speed with something like a new lid and go faster, wow....sorta like getting a skinsuit and crushing the time trial record set the week before and then crushing that a month later when a new Bora wheelset came into the picture...was that magic, did someone suddenly morph into a superman ?....nahhh, just aero gains, and some coincidental perfect weather...

Cheers
Last edited by blutto on Wed May 03, 2023 12:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.

warthog101
Posts: 872
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:05 am

by warthog101

blutto wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 11:04 am
warthog101 wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 3:23 am
blutto wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 7:50 pm

...and all those new bikes are likely to be aero massaged enough to make up for the loss of the leading edge aero that I was mentioning...we are talking about 15-20 watts, which may not make a marked difference in your group ride but would count in a race, or at higher speeds...

Cheers
Were that the case, race speeds would not be climbing, or overall elapsed times dropping.
There are still swap offs and attacks on some of the rides.
The disc riders are not any slower since they swapped to disc.
Sorry, your theory is simply not borne out by the results.
...so you're saying that aero bikes really aren't that aero....ok....you win....

Cheers
I see why the others gave it away.
All the best with your riding.

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HammerTime2
Posts: 5813
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 4:43 pm
Location: Wherever there's a mountain beckoning to be climbed

by HammerTime2

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 4:58 am
warthog101 wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 3:23 am

Were that the case, race speeds would not be climbing, or overall elapsed times dropping.
There are still swap offs and attacks on some of the rides.
The disc riders are not any slower since they swapped to disc.
Sorry, your theory is simply not borne out by the results.

Not just the pros… all the major area Strava KOMs are continuously falling. Maybe all the local racers are pumped full of exogenous T too then.

Seriously…on Saturday during Berkeley Hills RR (run since 1957,) a handful of us set the KOM on Pumphouse. It was a calm day and we weren’t even allowed to supertuck. The previous KOM was set in the 2022 edition. This segment has seen 125757 attempts by 17817 people. Speeds are trending up in all races every year. The 2022 edition of another local race, Dunnigan Hills, was the fastest ever.
Perhaps some combination of aero gains and doping/training gains. And yes, Masters racers. men and women, do dope. Even the really old dudes and dudettes. Now with perhaps better integrated "jointly optimized" doping and training regimens, for improved synergy.

by Weenie


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user83843
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2022 9:14 pm
Location: Idaho

by user83843

Older rim brake aero bikes can be just as fast as new disc aero stuff with the right wheels, bar width, cockpit mods, etc. Case in point - my 2012 ar1. And at 15-lbs it climbed faster than my new Aeroad. Of course, I like disc for other reasons.

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