RIM BRAKE FRAMES = OBSOLETE!

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

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bobones
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by bobones

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 9:33 pm
bobones wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 10:21 am
Retract FA. Feel is totally subjective. As long as you can accept that rim brakes and disc can feel different at the lever, then how can I be wrong if I prefer the feel of (some) rim brakes over my discs?
See how easy that was? All you needed to say from the start was “I prefer rim brakes.” Zero judgement.
That's not what I said, though, and I can see through your thinly veiled gaslighting. I am not anti-disc brakes per-se, and I am not some retro-grouch, pro-rim zealot for the sake of it. I just cannot sit back and let anti-rim brake FUD and pro-disc propaganda go unchallenged when the evidence of my own experience is to the contrary.

I don't really get that worked up about feel or modulation: my main requirement for brakes is to slow me down and stop me in a predictable and safe manner without being too annoying. Sadly, disc brakes fail at the being annoying bit when it's wet, whereas I find rim brakes are still surprisingly good despite what the naysayers would have you believe.

Of course I know about all of the drawbacks of rim-brakes and the advantages of disc brakes, but for me, the shortcomings of current disc brakes are worse than those of rim brakes for the type of riding I do 99% of the time (no big mountains or super steep stuff and only tarmac, but quite a lot of rain).

If I can solve the noise problem (both squealing in wet and grating/scraping due to narrow pad/rotor clearance) then I would be a lot happier with my discs. Who would put up with their car brakes making such noise in the rain? No one.

This is the elephant in the room as far as I am concerned, with only Mr. Gib here being truly open and honest about discs brakes always being noisy to some extent in the wet. If I am wrong about this, then please do tell me how I can have quieter disc brakes. (You may have noticed that none of the disc fans have replied to my previous request about this apart from said Mr.Gib, so I'll assume that is just not possible).

I estimate I am only using brakes for about 1 or 2% of my cycling time, so braking does not contribute massively to the joy of cycling for me, but noisy disc brakes sure do suck out a lot of the fun!

To illustrate my point here is an updated video showing discs and rim brakes at the same points on a similarly wet route. The rim brakes are 105 using Wiggle Lifeline blue pads on self built carbon wheels (Deerobust rims from AliE) i.e. cheap and basic. I usually ride alu wheels in the wet but I was surprised at how good the carbon rims were at slowing down and stopping me, quietly and without fuss. Of course, rim brakes wear out rims, but I have yet to wear out a set of carbon rims in 8 years, and I can replace an alu rim for less than it costs to buy a set of premium disc brake pads.


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tarmackev
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by tarmackev

bobones wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 6:52 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 9:33 pm
bobones wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 10:21 am
Retract FA. Feel is totally subjective. As long as you can accept that rim brakes and disc can feel different at the lever, then how can I be wrong if I prefer the feel of (some) rim brakes over my discs?
See how easy that was? All you needed to say from the start was “I prefer rim brakes.” Zero judgement.

This is the elephant in the room as far as I am concerned, with only Mr. Gib here being truly open and honest about discs brakes always being noisy to some extent in the wet. If I am wrong about this, then please do tell me how I can have quieter disc brakes. (You may have noticed that none of the disc fans have replied to my previous request about this apart from said Mr.Gib, so I'll assume that is just not possible).


Thinking about it, on the road I'm not sure if my discs were ever quiet in the wet, they have been off road but I'm unsure on road.
Are ALL road discs noisy in the wet or is it just some?

spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

Lately in the wet my disc are noisy only at first pull then quiet .. the only time the noise persisted was offroad with contaminated pads and rotors. Cleaned the rotots with alcohol, but had to torch the pads to burn it off.
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bobones
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by bobones

I spent some time trying to improve this. I removed the pads, which still look new, sanded them, cleaned them with acetone, put some copperslip on the back of the pads, cleaned the rotors with acetone and bedded the brakes in. All seemed good at first, no rubbing, good stopping performance, and no noise, but on this morning's ride in dry conditions with just a little moisture in the air, the front brake was still a bit squeaky on first contact. I really want to get to the bottom of this, so I'll try some different pads and speak to my LBS to see if they can offer any advice. Perhaps there is some slight misalignment, and I do need to get the mounts faced? The joys of disc brakes :noidea:

spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

^ change the pads.... pads are super porous
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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

Yeah it's well known, why else would it come out products all the time claiming "finally" your disc brakes will be silent.
Sure, there might be guys fiddling day in and out with their disc calipers, rotors yada yada. But the main user doesn't!
If people don't like to fiddle with bleeding brakes (to often), why would they suddenly wish to fiddle with the calipers, pads or rotors?
Not sure how many actually like to wash their bike and keep the chain clean?
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bobones
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by bobones

spdntrxi wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 1:54 pm
^ change the pads.... pads are super porous
The pads were new, not contaminated, but I swapped them out yesterday for some organic jobs, which were very quiet in the dry when I was bedding them in, but were just as noisy in the wet as the semi-metallic ones they replaced. I had also tried swapping the pads and rotors around - front to back and vice versa as the front brake always seems to be a bit worse, but that didn't make any difference either and the front still was louder than the rear.

Next step was to replace the rotors. I had been using centerlock SRAM Centerline X rounded rotors that I bought separately from the Force AXS groupset, as it had come with 6-bolt rotors, but I got a pair of adapters and fitted the Centerline XR rotors today. First impression from a short ride in a downpour is that they're much quieter, not silent in the rain by any stretch, but less obnoxiously loud, and quiet when just feathering them lightly. I'm still getting that gritty scraping noise a lot too, but that's not going away until pad clearance is much bigger. It's early days yet, but it seems the original rotors, rather than the pads, have been the main contributor to the excess noise in my setup.

Nevertheless, watching today's wet Giro stage, it seems disc noise is just something we're expected to put up with.
Last edited by bobones on Wed May 10, 2023 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

I look at Giro 2023 just now. It's raining, the brakes are screaming and the commentators says - these disc brakes, sigh!!!
But i guess the pro mechanics aren't as skilled as some here....
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Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

wheelsONfire wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 12:33 pm
I look at Giro 2023 just now. It's raining, the brakes are screaming and the commentators says - these disc brakes, sigh!!!
But i guess the pro mechanics aren't as skilled as some here....
They also have to maintain ~20 bikes that are ritually abused. They’re pressure washing bikes and haphazardly brushing cleaning solution all over. As long as the brakes actually stop the bike, they don’t care about a tiny bit of contamination. And yes, many traveling pro mechanics are older and have some learning to do WRT newer tech. The fact that some teams weren’t running inserts at Paris-Roubaix should have made this clear.

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

^
Ah, so refreshing! I knew you would respond. You have silent brakes, i get it. Point is many don't!
Do remember, i'm not against them... just saying!
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

My brakes are silent with SwissStop RS pads except in the combination of very cold and very wet. When I use E pads, they do honk when I haven’t touched the brakes in a while. If a bit of honking is the worst we can come up with, I’d say disc brake life isn’t so bad. Seriously, in situations where disc brakes might squeal, aren't they generally the superior choice in terms of braking feel?

And yes using PrO mEcHanIcs as an example is weird to me. Roadies are creatures of habit and occupational bike mechanics perhaps even moreso. Or put it this way, maybe actually listen to the people who have for-the-most-part quiet disc brakes and not the people who don’t.

For better or worse, disc brakes are inevitable and it would be in everyone’s best interests to learn what works and what doesn’t rather than sabotage their own experience with bias.

bobones
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by bobones

Cheapest I can find RS pads in the UK is £45 delivered for a full set. As they're not known for durability, that's just too much for a bike for which wet riding is its primary function. Going on other advice, I have ordered sets of Galfer Standard and Swissstop Es, and I've tried various things to reduce noise, so I am trying to find what works rather than sabotage my experience with bias!

Changing the rotors has definitely reduced the noise to a more tolereable level, and the feel is much better with organic resin pads than metallic ones. I'm not sure if it's the rotors themselves or the way they're connected to the wheel that's made the difference. On my last couple of rides I was really only getting squealing coming to a dead stop a few times, but just rolling round corners and slowing down was quiet. I still get them picking up grit and rasping/grating for periods, which is fairly annoying, and incurable it seems.

My point has always been that rim brakes are still perfectly viable, even preferrable, in the wet in most of the scenarios I encounter daily because stopping performance is more than adequate (even with carbon rims), and the lack of noise makes them much more enjoyable to ride with.

Is it beyond the scope of human invention to come up with a combination of pad, rotor, and caliper that has enough clearance to prevent noise from grit and kills the resonance that causes squealing and honking in the wet?

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Juanmoretime
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by Juanmoretime

In California and riding a rim brake bike that has been loned to me. It climbs well, desends well and brakes well. It's a Calfee Dragonfly Pro set up with Rival and Rolf Elan wheels. It's a pleasure to ride and fits me perfectly. I still regard my T3 Disc as my all time favorite bicycle. The Calfee comes in easily the top five bikes that are top on my list of best and favorite, of course to me.

flying
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by flying

Image

warthog101
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by warthog101

https://road.cc/content/tech-news/new-s ... kes-301267

A year after launching the race-focused Allez Sprint, Specialized has now revamped its classic, entry-level Allez. Two models are available, the Allez and Allez Sport, with carbon forks, clearance for up to 35mm tyres and hidden mudguard and rack mounts. Both are also disc brake-only, which marks the end of rim brakes across Specialized's whole adult bike range.

Dunno how accurate that is.

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