....you really should get together with spdntrxi and work this out....TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:37 pmI’m still amazed someone thinks they can feel one ten-thousandths of a second. And yes, that’s all in your head.
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....you really should get together with spdntrxi and work this out....TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:37 pmI’m still amazed someone thinks they can feel one ten-thousandths of a second. And yes, that’s all in your head.
Exactly. They talk about feel, not tech.TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:50 pm
bobones backed off the term modulation, but still claims disc brakes have worse “lever feel.”
blutto is even more specifically suggesting that braking forces traveling through deflecting, elongating, resonating spokes is causing a muted brake feel and/or lag.
inferior feel? Who said anything about inferior feel? More straw men, Tobin?TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 8:18 amAnd what supposedly causes this inferior feel? The bogeyman?
Can we get back on topic? It's much more interesting talking about rimbrake bikes than arguingTobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 8:51 am
Do you now speak for blutto and bobones and retract their statements? If so, great.
Ah, cmon, don't try to make the need to wipe water off carbon rims a feature of rim brakes...!eli76141 wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 8:06 am
Exactly. They talk about feel, not tech.
And I agree so far, that you get more feedback from rimbrakes. If it's wet, the braking is different, which you feel immediately. You have to soft-brake a little bit earlier to get the water of the rim. This means you have to adjust the power and timing accordingly. You even hear a different sound, since you hear the water coming off the rim.
But back to the point. There is a reason ABS was invented. And that is because people can't be trusted not to panic.
Have you ever panicked on a bike, Tobin?
I'm not making it a feature. Jesus.Singular wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 9:38 amAh, cmon, don't try to make the need to wipe water off carbon rims a feature of rim brakes...!eli76141 wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 8:06 am
Exactly. They talk about feel, not tech.
And I agree so far, that you get more feedback from rimbrakes. If it's wet, the braking is different, which you feel immediately. You have to soft-brake a little bit earlier to get the water of the rim. This means you have to adjust the power and timing accordingly. You even hear a different sound, since you hear the water coming off the rim.
But back to the point. There is a reason ABS was invented. And that is because people can't be trusted not to panic.
Have you ever panicked on a bike, Tobin?
If there is one single thing that's a major flaw and drawback that I'd happily exclude from using rim brakes, that's the one.
Retract FA. Feel is totally subjective. As long as you can accept that rim brakes and disc can feel different at the lever, then how can I be wrong if I prefer the feel of (some) rim brakes over my discs?TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 8:51 am
Do you now speak for blutto and bobones and retract their statements? If so, great.
....you still haven't answered my query about how the use of disc brakes can destruct front wheels....which oddly enough is not an issue with the use of rim brake systems....TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:40 pmOf course a disc-brake wheel needs to be built stiffer to protect itself from destruction, but to suggest you can feel those differences under braking it is hilarious. Even if we include aspects you did not mention like pad movement inside the caliper, we’re talking about *maybe* 1mm worth of play, aka 1mm of lag in terms of stopping distance. Aka .0001 seconds at 30km/h going from a perfectly designed rigid disc-brake+wheel system to what we have in real life.
If you can feel this difference as a muted/unresponsive braking feel, congratulations.
Now consider the friction and elongation in a cable-actuated brake vs non-compressible fluid in a hydro brake as well, and this discussion becomes even more ridiculous.
anywheel needs be built stiff enough not to self destruct, he's just saying the db wheel needs to be built different then a rb wheel. Why is this a struggle to understand, when the physics is different.blutto wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 4:14 pm....you still haven't answered my query about how the use of disc brakes can destruct front wheels....which oddly enough is not an issue with the use of rim brake systems....TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:40 pmOf course a disc-brake wheel needs to be built stiffer to protect itself from destruction, but to suggest you can feel those differences under braking it is hilarious. Even if we include aspects you did not mention like pad movement inside the caliper, we’re talking about *maybe* 1mm worth of play, aka 1mm of lag in terms of stopping distance. Aka .0001 seconds at 30km/h going from a perfectly designed rigid disc-brake+wheel system to what we have in real life.
If you can feel this difference as a muted/unresponsive braking feel, congratulations.
Now consider the friction and elongation in a cable-actuated brake vs non-compressible fluid in a hydro brake as well, and this discussion becomes even more ridiculous.
Cheers
....speaking of struggles to understand, how is it that you look at the bit I bolded and come up with different when it quite clearly says stiffer ( I can see from a photo its different but what I would like to know is why it should be made stiffer and why the addition of a disc brake system to a wheel could put that wheel in danger of destruction )....and stiffer to provide protection from destruction, really !? liability lawyers are going to have a field day with that idea....and yet we have a claim this increase in stiffness will not possibly be felt when action is applied across it when it is well known that all lacing patterns have an obviously different feel....yet this invisible/undetectable stiffness thing certainly becomes quite prominent when someone is trying to sell the idea that stiffness in the front end requires fatter and fatter tires ( or is that also because the forks and rear triangle have to be made much stiffer to accomodate a disc assembly at the hub ).... and speaking of the cumulative aero effect of fat tires and stiffer lacing patterns why do something that fairly significantly reduces the aerodynamics of the bike's leading edge, oh yeah, the front wheel could destruct and one could be placed in mortal danger in the ensuing crash...spdntrxi wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 4:30 pmanywheel needs be built stiff enough not to self destruct, he's just saying the db wheel needs to be built different then a rb wheel. Why is this a struggle to understand, when the physics is different.blutto wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 4:14 pm....you still haven't answered my query about how the use of disc brakes can destruct front wheels....which oddly enough is not an issue with the use of rim brake systems....TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Sun Apr 30, 2023 6:40 pmOf course a disc-brake wheel needs to be built stiffer to protect itself from destruction, but to suggest you can feel those differences under braking it is hilarious. Even if we include aspects you did not mention like pad movement inside the caliper, we’re talking about *maybe* 1mm worth of play, aka 1mm of lag in terms of stopping distance. Aka .0001 seconds at 30km/h going from a perfectly designed rigid disc-brake+wheel system to what we have in real life.
If you can feel this difference as a muted/unresponsive braking feel, congratulations.
Now consider the friction and elongation in a cable-actuated brake vs non-compressible fluid in a hydro brake as well, and this discussion becomes even more ridiculous.
Cheers