Weight Weenies

I wonder, if one was to buy a frameset these days given the current situation, where is the "best value"? Main brands have their "second tier carbon" frames (e.g. Trek SL, Specialized Pro) which could still be decent value but these are usually not for sale, and full builds have become insanely expensive (and you ultimately get rather rubbish alloy components to go with the frame that you have no use for, you can't pick colours, etc).

I was thinking that, at least within the EU/UK, brands like Ribble and Orbea are still relatively good value and do offer some level of customisation. Is there any other option that can allow customers to "defend themselves" against these price increases?

euph wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:33 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

funny you mentioned it - economics proffessor would tell ya "but it applies to high end luxurious goods, not common mass production things like bicycles". and he would be both right and wrong. right, because - yup - said effect vaguely describes how the high-end market operates, and vanity comes into play. wrong, because economics is more like reading tea leaves than actual science, as it turns out again and again.

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Items like Patek Phillippe, Leica etc yes.

Mass-produced bikes you can easily by at retail or less. Not so much. Maybe something like a Passoni, or Bastion. Maybe. S-Works et al. Nope.

robeambro wrote:I wonder, if one was to buy a frameset these days given the current situation, where is the "best value"? Main brands have their "second tier carbon" frames (e.g. Trek SL, Specialized Pro) which could still be decent value but these are usually not for sale, and full builds have become insanely expensive (and you ultimately get rather rubbish alloy components to go with the frame that you have no use for, you can't pick colours, etc).

I was thinking that, at least within the EU/UK, brands like Ribble and Orbea are still relatively good value and do offer some level of customisation. Is there any other option that can allow customers to "defend themselves" against these price increases?

If it were me and if I were to be a first time buyer again, there are deals to be had but you have to see the full landscape first. I think reputable brands with good r and d but not vastly advertised represent decent value. Orbea as you said, Lapierre is another good one and highly underrated. Original design and well tested. The price should be better than Trek, Specialized for top spec.

If these are hard to come by, I would get a second tier bike from top brands like the sl7 non s works model or a canyon cfx instead of the cfr. The giant second tire model also easier to live with having none of the i integrated seatpost , sell all the bundled parts and build it up anew on my own chosen parts.

With careful part choice you can build up a very competitive bike in terms of both weight and aero at half or just 60-65% the cost of flagship models from popular brands.

This is annoying in that it requires you know what exactly to buy though so not newcomer friendly at all.

Another “good value” brand i think is Factor. Yes they are outright expensive but when you buy just the frameset, they bundle everything you need and this add up to a lot of money.

They give you

- integrated handlebar, very light with also very light computer mount.
- Ceramic speed bb and headset bearings
- seatpost
- railclamp for both carbon and alloy saddle
- spare hangers

The sworks sl7 frameset wont get you bars and bbs. The frameset is also more expensive than the factor bundle, for example. As far as i know no brands except factor bundle you a ceramic bearing top tier bottom bracket.

With factor you can also spec the size of your bar and stem and can choose your seatpost to be inline or offset. This is great since with other brands you have to get the stock that come with the frame and resell it to buy the right measurement. Annoying AF.

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A real first time buyer is likely to walk into a bike shop and ask for the best bike for their budget and leave it at that. They aren't going to find Canyon or Factor. They aren't going to seek out a Giant dealer specifically. They have no idea how much a bike costs. Frankly they have no idea how much they think I bike should cost. It gets even more confusing if they see a BSO on Amazon for 1/10th the cost.

guyc wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 01, 2022 3:33 pm

Items like Patek Phillippe, Leica etc yes.

Mass-produced bikes you can easily by at retail or less. Not so much. Maybe something like a Passoni, or Bastion. Maybe. S-Works et al. Nope.

Someone buying a Patek Philippe is probably not to worried about price changes and inflation. For the same reason why Koenigsegg have sold out every car 4 years forward I know a guy like this IRL, he has a smaller yacht amongst other things, cashed up a brand new S-works SL7 DA Di2. As much as he is laughing at us peasants we are laughing cause he cannot ride his bike potential


On another note I think at times like this, chinese B2C frames will be more and more common. When you can get a painted frame shipped to your door for under $1000 USD

There are fantastic hyperbike bargains if you buy a used rim brake frame, preferably with tubs. The hyperbike owners (i.e. dentists) are giving them away on ebay, and they usually have just a few hundred miles on them.

as Tobin said: first timers buy whatever lbs sells them, or what their 'pals' from riding groups advertise (and most often you seek council of those who shine the brightest)

eurostar wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:31 am

There are fantastic hyperbike bargains if you buy a used rim brake frame, preferably with tubs. The hyperbike owners (i.e. dentists) are giving them away on ebay, and they usually have just a few hundred miles on them.

Dentists seem to get a bad press here on WW! My mate's a dental surgeon but over the years he has also been an Irish national champion over several disciplines - road, cross and track. Not sure what bike he's riding at the moment but whatever it is, he rides it very very fast! Also for those of us old enough to remember another very fast dentist, Briitish rider Ian Hallam, who won mutiple track titles and also an Olympic bronze if memory serves.

Anyhow, back to the topic. Agree completely that the current bike prices are complete madness and for sure there are a shit load of poseurs out there spending eye-watering money on bikes that only ever get ridden down the road to the nearest coffee shop!

I wonder what the average speed of a dentist is vs the average speed of a weight weenie shitposter.

Each ww user has to show his strava profile + FTP and his weight. Ideally with proof of FTP test. Heh

TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:57 pm

I wonder what the average speed of a dentist is vs the average speed of a weight weenie shitposter.

Louis

I have never paid those absurd prices.

I remember when first E-tube Di2 came out. A first gen Scott Foil with 6770 cost 2700 EUR. Next year the same bike was 3200 EUR.
Second gen Scott Foil with disc brakes and 8070 Di2 cost 5500 EUR.
Ok, there is some 7 years between them but I doubt that a working class average income has double during that time.
Four grand is my where my limit it. Half for the parts, half for the frameset. Wheels not included.

But it is not just bikes. They are asking 250 EUR for cycling jerseys/jackets and shorts.

Omiar wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:01 am

I have never paid those absurd prices.

I remember when first E-tube Di2 came out. A first gen Scott Foil with 6770 cost 2700 EUR. Next year the same bike was 3200 EUR.
Second gen Scott Foil with disc brakes and 8070 Di2 cost 5500 EUR.
Ok, there is some 7 years between them but I doubt that a working class average income has double during that time.
Four grand is my where my limit it. Half for the parts, half for the frameset. Wheels not included.

But it is not just bikes. They are asking 250 EUR for cycling jerseys/jackets and shorts.

3500 is my limit. Including wheels and all clothes/gear

Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com

Way more than half of the new wheelsets I see people buy are from either Chinese brands or from western low cost resellers. And recently I've seen a couple of open mold frames on the road. The brands have cut off a large portion of their market by not having affordable models in their lineup. Yes they'll keep selling to the people for whom money is no object and who're buying a new bike for the first time. But everyone else? They're more and more likely to go for either a Chinese or a western low cost brand. And once they've got good experiences with that brand what are the chances they'll ever buy something from those prestigious brands at 2 - 5x the money even if they can afford it later on?

And the same is about to happen with groupsets. Sensah already has some stuff but it's all mechanical and the quality isn't all there yet. But give them one or two more iterations and they'll have a very competitive electronic offering. I don't see 105 Di2 selling at its current price point when that happens.