Is anyone completely done with these absurd prices?

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blaugrana
Posts: 421
Joined: Wed May 24, 2017 9:49 pm

by blaugrana

This is always a risk when you are selling things at an order of magnitude over the production cost, there is a lot of room for new competition to enter the market. "Premium" brands can offer extended warranties, free crash replacements or things like that to differentiate themselves, but that still doesn't justify paying 2-3x as much to people looking for decent value.

With groupsets it seems like alternative offerings like Sensah are lagging behind quite a bit. You can't really get away with not having hydraulic brakes in 2022 unless you are only targeting low end stuff, and having mechanical only won't be enough. And at some point someone will have to come up with a true budget electronic groupset (i.e. something priced like old 105, not 105 priced like or avobe old Ultegra), though it seems like the main obstacle for that is the current patent minefield, not technical capabilities.

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JMeinholdt
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by JMeinholdt

Lina wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:07 pm
Way more than half of the new wheelsets I see people buy are from either Chinese brands or from western low cost resellers. And recently I've seen a couple of open mold frames on the road. The brands have cut off a large portion of their market by not having affordable models in their lineup. Yes they'll keep selling to the people for whom money is no object and who're buying a new bike for the first time. But everyone else? They're more and more likely to go for either a Chinese or a western low cost brand. And once they've got good experiences with that brand what are the chances they'll ever buy something from those prestigious brands at 2 - 5x the money even if they can afford it later on?

And the same is about to happen with groupsets. Sensah already has some stuff but it's all mechanical and the quality isn't all there yet. But give them one or two more iterations and they'll have a very competitive electronic offering. I don't see 105 Di2 selling at its current price point when that happens.
People are increasingly looking at alternative options for cycling gear, mostly from Chinese brands. Just look at a lot of the popular cycling Youtubers. The reviews of the latest and greatest Specialized aren't getting near the views at the videos on Chinese alternatives.

And wheels are 100% going that direction. I used to see a lot of Zipp wheels out on the road. Now I see much more from the likes of Light Bicycle, Winspace, etc.

There will always be people out there that will have no limit to buy whatever is the most expensive thing on the market. But I expect there will be a point when the prices reach a level that deters enough buyers to reach a cap. Wheels are getting there already. I 100% believe that's why we're seeing so many cheaper alternatives from the big name brands, like Zipp with the 303S and Enve with the Foundation line. I'm certain Zipp has seen with the popularity of the 303S that it's in their best interest to invest in wheels that hit that price point.
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misteryellow
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Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:04 pm

by misteryellow

I agree with the sentiment above. It is also seemingly impossible to build up a frameset with Shinano etc because of the very high prices.
''Just because something is possible, doesn't mean it's a good idea. It will add unnecessary complexity with little, if any, real benefit. Part of the beauty of this sport is the lack of hand holding & arse wiping.'' - ultimobici

liam7020
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by liam7020

For me, Farsports and Caden wheels are so good now I would never consider any of the hyper-priced big brand names. And if I need something for day-to-day use, cross etc I can build them myself!
Last edited by liam7020 on Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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liam7020
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by liam7020

Double post
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Light Bicycle wheels in the configuration I want, end up being about US$1900. I recently got Ascent Polaris wheels with DT 180s for $2230, and they are backed by lifetime free crash replacement. Ascent might be considered somewhere in between the bargain Chinese DTC brands and the bigger names.

I can also get stuff like Bontrager Aeolus RSLs for $2300 during sale season. In the end it's great to have all kinds of choices at the high end.

Ypuh
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by Ypuh

Shopping around still (or again) pays off. You slowly see the 20-50% discounts return, however they are still more rare than 3 years ago.

Also the base price simply went up. DA Di2 now costs €3.5k instead of €2k and same goes for Etap. It are mainly the new groupsets and frames with internal cable routing that nearly doubled in price compared to their predecessors.

Take Cervelo for example with the Caledonia and Caledonia-5 or Trek SLR versions. One frameset costs about €2.699 and the other €4.499 with the primary difference being the ICR. You could say the non-ICR models are the same as the previous generation and you pay a €2k premium for that one feature.

The new groupset prices are a mysery to me, but I assume it's more due to availability than actual cost.
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fa63
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by fa63

I was looking into the topic of high end bike prices recently. The first chart is the data from bicyclebluebook.com for Trek Madone and Specialized Tarmac. Prices took off in 2013, coinciding with the introduction of the redesigned Madone with aero features and DA9070 Di2. The drop in the pricing of the Tarmac around 2016/17 seems to coincide with the period where Specialized was pushing the Venge as their top bike.

The second chart shows the Trek Madone prices again, but this time also with the prices adjusted for inflation using 2022 USD. Folks have been paying $14K+ for top-end bikes for a while; in fact, it makes the 2022 $12.5K Madone look like a downright bargain Image


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mrlobber
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by mrlobber

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:15 am
Light Bicycle wheels in the configuration I want, end up being about US$1900. I recently got Ascent Polaris wheels with DT 180s for $2230, and they are backed by lifetime free crash replacement. Ascent might be considered somewhere in between the bargain Chinese DTC brands and the bigger names.
Looked at Ascent, seem to be a quite recent company founded by enthusiasts. Curious, what makes it already being established above Chinese brands in your opinion?
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:15 am
I can also get stuff like Bontrager Aeolus RSLs for $2300 during sale season. In the end it's great to have all kinds of choices at the high end.
Bontrager high end are still a relative bargain compared to Zipp NSWs /Enve SESs.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

mrlobber wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:09 pm

Looked at Ascent, seem to be a quite recent company founded by enthusiasts. Curious, what makes it already being established above Chinese brands in your opinion?
It’s not that they’re established, but they do their own CFD, tunnel tested the wheels with various tires, and sent prototypes out to testers. They also tested competitors’ wheels in the same wind tunnel to help establish a baseline for that particular wind tunnel. They aren’t just the consumer facing side of a factory/OEM. The founder is very engaging and communicates directly with customers.

Full disclosure, one of my teammates has been riding prototypes for over a year.

There’s a 42mm deep version coming out soon. Since it’s shallower, it will also be slightly narrower at 23mm internal and 32.5mm external. Should be ~1300g with DT 180s.

mrlobber
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by mrlobber

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:16 pm
It’s not that they’re established, but they do their own CFD, tunnel tested the wheels with various tires, and sent prototypes out to testers. They also tested competitors’ wheels in the same wind tunnel to help establish a baseline for that particular wind tunnel. They aren’t just the consumer facing side of a factory/OEM. The founder is very engaging and communicates directly with customers.

Full disclosure, one of my teammates has been riding prototypes for over a year.
Sounds nice, thanks :thumbup:
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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 4:16 pm
mrlobber wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:09 pm

Looked at Ascent, seem to be a quite recent company founded by enthusiasts. Curious, what makes it already being established above Chinese brands in your opinion?
It’s not that they’re established, but they do their own CFD, tunnel tested the wheels with various tires, and sent prototypes out to testers. They also tested competitors’ wheels in the same wind tunnel to help establish a baseline for that particular wind tunnel. They aren’t just the consumer facing side of a factory/OEM. The founder is very engaging and communicates directly with customers.

Full disclosure, one of my teammates has been riding prototypes for over a year.

There’s a 42mm deep version coming out soon. Since it’s shallower, it will also be slightly narrower at 23mm internal and 32.5mm external. Should be ~1300g with DT 180s.
Who makes the rims?
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ParisCarbon
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Location: Winnipeg Canada

by ParisCarbon

It seems that the shipping prices have gone through the roof, while the quality of the shipping service has hit the bottom of the well.. ordered several EPS components from bike24 on Aug 30 , shipping to Canada, it took me poking at 24 to find out WTF was taking so long, they contacted DHL post, and they claimed they have 30 days to deliver it! It was only yesterday that I actually only saw a scan on DHL post , more or less its the thrown in the bin to ship to Canada scan...even though it says its left , I know it hasnt as they ship Air Canada every other tuesday to Canada it seems.. so $90 canadian in shipping costs, and a month to get my stuff.. order wheels from chain reaction, dhl express for $30..in my hands in 3 days.. Ordered parts from excel sports in Colorado.. had 2 options with UPS, both were within $4 of one another, so picked the faster one, failed to be delivered in the stated time span, it arrived in Winnipeg, and then Winnipeg failed to put it on the delivery truck for 2 days even though they told me it was out for delivery... Excel was very good and refunded my shipping costs.. Universal cycles now charges about $70+ USD for expedited service to Canada... the last order I did with them cost me $100 in shipping for 2 rotors and some other small bits...

smartyiak
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by smartyiak

Ypuh wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:11 am
Take Cervelo for example with the Caledonia and Caledonia-5 or Trek SLR versions. One frameset costs about €2.699 and the other €4.499 with the primary difference being the ICR. You could say the non-ICR models are the same as the previous generation and you pay a €2k premium for that one feature.

The new groupset prices are a mysery to me, but I assume it's more due to availability than actual cost.
And one (me) would think that the "feature" should/could lower the price. Not the Cervelo, but a couple of frames have come out that are "wireless only." I would think that would make mfg even easier...but I don't believe it will lower any prices; although kudos to Lauf for making, what seems like, the bargain of the year.

by Weenie


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Ypuh
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by Ypuh

smartyiak wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:10 pm
And one (me) would think that the "feature" should/could lower the price. Not the Cervelo, but a couple of frames have come out that are "wireless only." I would think that would make mfg even easier...but I don't believe it will lower any prices; although kudos to Lauf for making, what seems like, the bargain of the year.
Yeah, unfortunately that's not how the world works. I'm not entirely sure, but the frames appear identical to me with the primary difference being the D-shaped forks.

They try to market it with one frame being high-modulus carbon and the like, but that's all proven to be just a wash. Only reason people are interested in the top models are either the stickers (S-Works instead of Specialized) but primarily the ICR.
Cervelo S3 - 7.29kg

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