Is anyone completely done with these absurd prices?

[tymon_tm]

The notion of corporate greed as the root of high prices may be an understandable emotional reaction to price shock, but it's not a well informed analysis

actually it is - and it's even got it's own name: greedflation

[kervelo]

The discussion about the "...huge price increases in the cycling industry..." is in general no longer vaid. During the summer 2023 many manufacturers have had significant sales of their bikes. The German Mountainbike magazine has discussed the situation in their latest 10/2023 issue. According to their article the brands have discounted the prices (of the MTB's) as follows:
Cannondale up to 19%
Canyon up to 12%
Commencal up to 31%
Focus up to 40%
Giant up to 10%
Orbea up to 25%
Radon up to 31%
Rose up to 18%
Specialized up to 28%
Trek up to 16%
YT up to 12%

These are just the discounts available on the official manufacturer web sites: the discounts on the web shops are usually much bigger. For example, Bike24 has had discounts of over 30% for BMC, Cannondale, Focus, Giant, GT, Haibike, Kona, Liv, Marin, Norco, Salsa and Scott bikes according to the article. Other shops have had similar disounts for many major brands.

[tymon_tm]

there have always been discounts. some offer them, some don't, but trying to debate price increase with discounts is like arguing about climate change 'cause it's cold today

[Ypuh]

there have always been discounts. some offer them, some don't, but trying to debate price increase with discounts is like arguing about climate change 'cause it's cold today

But a comment that my new bike that I replace pretty much like-for-like 'only' increased by about ~€1.500 in 5 years gets ignored. That amount gets you internal cable routing, discs, wider rims, tubeless tyres, a 12th gear and a few more 'bonusses'.

Prices haven't gone up as much as comparing the discounted price you paid 5 years ago to today's MSRP and that is what a lot of people do here. Also with the assumption that all of these new developments should be free because that generalized statement is what they remembered from a textbook in college regarding innovations.

Expensive bikes have always been expensive, and adding loads of bells and whistles and overall inflation miraceously hasn't made them cheaper

[joejack951]

Ah yes, the 'do you really need' argument. Do you really need the latest iPhone? Nope, but when I do I don't want corporations limiting the charging speed and making spare parts 200% of their production cost. Remember that time that capitalism was meant to foster healthy competition which limited prices while making healthy profits? We now have companies muscling their way into market dominance or an oligopoly so they can charge huge markups while not having to pay their workers a fair price by leveraging globalization to their advantage. And this is just one industry. It is happening in almost ALL industries. You might choose to sit still and let these companies do their sweet talking, I choose to call them out on their absolute corporatist bullshit.

By ‘call them out on it’ you mean moan and groan on a fairly anonymous cycling message board? Forgive me if you are actually taking greater action than that (against this perceived crime of overcharging for what amounts to luxury goods) but a million words posted to this forum won’t change a darn thing.

For all the instances you point out about ‘huge markups’ you have failed to provide even one breakdown of what you suspect the actual cost of goods sold is. Of course, even if you did have that info you’d still be missing the bigger company picture of overhead costs for marketing, R&D, after-sales support, etc. Basically, you saying something is drastically over-priced doesn’t make it so. Offer up a reasoned argument at least.

There are plenty of real things in the world to be outraged about. The prices of Dura Ace and the latest iPhone aren’t on that list.

[cauchy]

Ofc they are, specialy iphone.

[Mr.Gib]

The notion of corporate greed as the root of high prices may be an understandable emotional reaction to price shock, but it's not a well informed analysis

actually it is - and it's even got it's own name: greedflation

You've studied corporate profits over the last 5 or 10 years? It seems not. Corporate profits are within two or three percentage points historical averages - which is rather modest in the current environment. Hell, we'd all take a 3 percent price increase if we could get it. Current high prices, including bicycles, are mostly due to government stimulus that was not offset by higher interest rates, pandemic manufacturing disruptions, major economies withdrawing from global trade agreements, and the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Just because someone comes up with a catchy name (actually a clever port-manteau, look it up if you don't know what that is), doesn't make it a valid concept. It's the average person's willingness to not think beyond a simple slogan that explains a lot about the state of certain parts of the world. Better to avoid this type of intellectual shortcut.

If you are actually interested in understanding the current situation, you could read this very high quality article which explains it in non-academic language. https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/ ... lsrc=aw.ds

Good luck arguing against these guys - there research is as usual, impeccable.

Bottom line once again, corporate greed is essential to a fuctioning economy. Equally important is effective government policy to maintain competitive markets and economic stability. This is where we have failed. And sometimes things like war and natural disasters can overwhelm even the best policy. Even in 1785 this was known - "The best laid plans of mice and men..."

Happy for you and others to continue to blame bike companies though - it might help me get a better deal on my next bike.

[misteryellow]

So I am not replying to all individual posts, especially not those pedantic posts which try to frame me as uneducated and irrational. Those who speak in emotion can still be rational. The most important take-away for me has been the notion that I worry too much about things that are deemed 'luxury goods', including many products in cycling. I find this interesting, because cycling has historically been a folk sport..a sport for the lower-class. Is progression in the development of cycling now mostly an affair within the luxury goods market? Because if indeed these products are a luxury good my criticism still stands: the progression in price has no direct relation to the increased quality of the products. It has become simply the outcome of marketing.

Companies these year have struggled financially and the greed seems to be limited. However, no one knows what's in store for the future. Nonetheless, the access to newer technology and an easy to repair bike are still topics worth discussing here. The same goes for 14000 euro bikes. Is the marketing strategy of the luxury bike damaging the affordability at lower tiers? And what do these bikes actually bring to the table?

p.s. the concept of greedflation is NOT universally rejected. The Bank of England released a report a couple of days ago where it stated that at an aggregate level there has been no proof of greedflation, but some sectors (including energy and retail) have shown signs of increasing costs beyond their COGS. Now one could argue this could be of anticipatory inflation or other factors. But the discussion doesn't end there because it leads to questions about pricing power. Specialized has countless of retail locations and in many cases have bought out existing stores (which offered different brand bikes) and only sell their own. Specialized uses many proprietary parts and you can ONLY get a majority of their parts through an Authorized Specialized Retailer.

Look here for further info: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28281229

What am I doing specifically about all of my grievances? Not a f*cking thing. But as a cycling enthusiast I see things that I reallly do not like and I know there more people like me (Hambini for example). Maybe my grievances annoy you and you just want to look at cool bikes without guys whining. Well for that I apologise:)

[ultimobici]

So I am not replying to all individual posts, especially not those pedantic posts which try to frame me as uneducated and irrational. Those who speak in emotion can still be rational. The most important take-away for me has been the notion that I worry too much about things that are deemed 'luxury goods', including many products in cycling. I find this interesting, because cycling has historically been a folk sport..a sport for the lower-class. Is progression in the development of cycling now mostly an affair within the luxury goods market? Because if indeed these products are a luxury good my criticism still stands: the progression in price has no direct relation to the increased quality of the products. It has become simply the outcome of marketing.

Companies these year have struggled financially and the greed seems to be limited. However, no one knows what's in store for the future. Nonetheless, the access to newer technology and an easy to repair bike are still topics worth discussing here. The same goes for 14000 euro bikes. Is the marketing strategy of the luxury bike damaging the affordability at lower tiers? And what do these bikes actually bring to the table?

p.s. the concept of greedflation is NOT universally rejected. The Bank of England released a report a couple of days ago where it stated that at an aggregate level there has been no proof of greedflation, but some sectors (including energy and retail) have shown signs of increasing costs beyond their COGS. Now one could argue this could be of anticipatory inflation or other factors. But the discussion doesn't end there because it leads to questions about pricing power. Specialized has countless of retail locations and in many cases have bought out existing stores (which offered different brand bikes) and only sell their own. Specialized uses many proprietary parts and you can ONLY get a majority of their parts through an Authorized Specialized Retailer.

Look here for further info: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28281229

What am I doing specifically about all of my grievances? Not a f*cking thing. But as a cycling enthusiast I see things that I reallly do not like and I know there more people like me (Hambini for example). Maybe my grievances annoy you and you just want to look at cool bikes without guys whining. Well for that I apologise:)

Some of us have been on the sport for decades and have worked in the cycling industry for almost as long. We have seen the trends in pricing say in day out.

I remember the £600 Specialized & Trek bikes I sold in the mid to late 90s. They were not high spec, having RX100 or RSX at best.

In 1994 105 had a RRP of just over £600. For that you got most of the same features as Dura Ace and Ultegra albeit in simpler form in heavier materials. Fast forward 29 years later and the same level of rim brake groupset will set you back £732.91 at full retail. That equates to Shimano “jacking their price up” a massive 3.25% each time a new iteration was launched.

This idea that cycling is a working class sport hasn’t been valid for decades. In 81 when I got into cycling I had to buy secondhand even though I was working. By 93, when I started in the trade, Dura Ace and Record were still out of reach, even at cost. Top end kit has always been expensive. That’s why 105, Veloce, Apex etc exist. The idea that anyone needs Ultegra, Chorus or Force is ridiculous.


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[Nickldn]

By ‘call them out on it’ you mean moan and groan on a fairly anonymous cycling message board? Forgive me if you are actually taking greater action than that (against this perceived crime of overcharging for what amounts to luxury goods) but a million words posted to this forum won’t change a darn thing.

What am I doing about it? Not buying a Lab71/SL8/Foil. Instead I choose to spend my money on brands like Giant, which provide excellent engineering, without the pretentious marketing.

I am also reading the marketing in the current SL8 thread with amusement, with people displaying their bikes like jewellery and fawning over the frame colours.

If you sit down with a non cyclist and tell them you have spent £12k+ on a bicycle they will think you are soft in the head. No, a bicycle is not a luxury good, like a Louis Vuitton bag, or a Arnold & Son watch, either of which will still be recognised as luxury goods in 50 years' time. A Scott Foil will not, I can assure you of that.

[warthog101]

^^ I liked that post. Thankyou.

[robertbb]

+2

Well said.

I agree and unless going custom I'm unlikely to ever buy a brand other than Giant, ever again. Unless they do something really dumb.

It's not just that they're as well (if not better) engineered and constructed than other brands, this is also at a significantly better price than their rivals and a lifetime frame warranty to boot.

[fatpinarellorider]

On one hand I agree that top end bikes have always been relatively expensive. And who got a Dura Ace or XTR equipped bike as their first bike when they were young? Nobody probably. I myself got some GT Timberline with not even deore level parts (Acera or alivio or something), frame with steel straight gauge tubing. And it was like about AUD$700-800.

Later, I managed to get a complete shogun ultegra alumium road bike for ~AUD$1000 in the late nineties. Which I thought was a bargain, because the groupset alone cost close to that.

On the other hand, I know this is subjective, but I do believe the prices of bikes has gone up (significantly).
The number of "top end" offerings has mushroomed, no one can deny that, and that has drawn the cost of lower tier bikes up also.

It used to be that only a few established or niche brands managed to charge premium prices. Now everyone is doing it, having a crack at it.

I personally think the value of especially top shelf production bikes is no longer there (for me). I do think they are becoming somewhat of a luxury for some people, sure. But I'm not really 'angry' or upset about it. I just think people are a bit, well, silly to pay today's asking prices. I've moved on a bit, become a bit more retro or "vintage", and don't even like half the modern stuff anyway (even if it was cheaper). Is it a question of sour grapes? Possibly (but I don't think so).

I myself prefer to get parts one at a time. For one thing, I could not afford a complete bike anyway. But that way, I get exactly what I want, and I can see where (or on what) that money is going. If I want to spend a bit more on a certain component, I do it. If I want to save a bit on something else, I do that too. So I don't ever see myself buying an off-the-peg complete bike ever again...

Of course, I used to have a proper/steady/regular job, now not. So I'm sure that has something to do with it. I have less money but more time.

[Flasher]

If you sit down with a non cyclist and tell them you have spent £12k+ on a bicycle they will think you are soft in the head. No, a bicycle is not a luxury good, like a Louis Vuitton bag, or a Arnold & Son watch, either of which will still be recognised as luxury goods in 50 years' time. A Scott Foil will not, I can assure you of that.

Absolutely agree, but whilst not a luxury good that may have some LTV, it's still a luxury good!

The average UK wage currently stands at £33,400 so I doubt anyone whose average is spending over a third of their yearly wage on a push bike.

Is WW is a good barometer of world wide bike purchasing, I'd say not.

[Ypuh]

Here in the Netherlands bikes have been a common good for decades. In my (grand)parents age there used to be a saying (on general everyday bikes) that "A good bike costs 2 months of wages".

The average income is not the best measure as it includes anyone who doesn't work. The modal income (most occuring) gives a better representation and is slightly below €40.000. What a 'good bike' is can be discussed, but I'd say that ranges around €2.000 to €3.000. Extrapolate that saying to today's modern disc brake road bikes and you get a lot more value for less.

Anything above €10k is obviously ridiculous to uneducated non-cyclists.