Is anyone completely done with these absurd prices?

[Kurt1980]

I may have said this before, but I do find it odd that a premium DH mtb with front and rear suspension and a more complex frame (at least from a kinematics perspective) costs LESS than a premium road bike.

Ex. Scott Gambler Tuned 2023 is around $13k Aud
Scott Foil RC Pro is around $15k Aud.

Either there is a middle aged man tax (greed), or road is subsidising mtb (necessary greed). Or am I missing something here?

[nickf]

Anything above €10k is obviously ridiculous to uneducated non-cyclists.

Anything above 10k even for me is ridiculous. There is no way in hell I could ever justify that kind of money on a bicycle.

[joejack951]

By ‘call them out on it’ you mean moan and groan on a fairly anonymous cycling message board? Forgive me if you are actually taking greater action than that (against this perceived crime of overcharging for what amounts to luxury goods) but a million words posted to this forum won’t change a darn thing.

What am I doing about it? Not buying a Lab71/SL8/Foil. Instead I choose to spend my money on brands like Giant, which provide excellent engineering, without the pretentious marketing.

I am also reading the marketing in the current SL8 thread with amusement, with people displaying their bikes like jewellery and fawning over the frame colours.

If you sit down with a non cyclist and tell them you have spent £12k+ on a bicycle they will think you are soft in the head. No, a bicycle is not a luxury good, like a Louis Vuitton bag, or a Arnold & Son watch, either of which will still be recognised as luxury goods in 50 years' time. A Scott Foil will not, I can assure you of that.

Sorry for ignoring this thread for a few days.

Just as a quick recap, my major issue with the prior posts was this idea that bicycle manufacturers are 'price gouging'. In order to price gouge a customer, there must be an inherent need for the item (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_gouging). That is the why I replied asking 'do you really need...'. Of course, I know that no one needs it and that people are simply upset/annoyed at the current prices. Complain all you want and I can ignore it. Just don't use terms that imply high end cycling gear (or an iPhone) is some kind of necessity otherwise pedants like me may be annoyed

Anyway, I just took a look at Giant's offerings and couldn't help but notice that they have a $12,500 road bike: https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/prope ... -sl-0-2023

So a Scott Foil RC is $16k (https://www.scott-sports.com/us/en/prod ... =290337047). Right off the bat I see a few major differences, namely the in-house branded wheels on the Giant and the Zipps on Scott. Whether or not that and the remaining differences are worth $3.5k to you doesn't make Scott's offering a scam and Giant's a good deal. They are both quite expensive for what amounts to a recreational toy for most of us. Then again, add another '0' on the end of my yearly earnings and I'd see those prices a lot differently.

As far as the 'luxury good' discussion, first, by 'luxury' I simply mean priced such your average individual looking to buy a bike isn't even going to consider it. And it's all relative. Luxury for a bike is dirt cheap for a car. For most people, though, (ignoring the few cycling enthusiasts) a bike above $500 isn't even going to be considered. I can get this 'nice' road bike for $400 from Walmart after all: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Vilano-Shado ... om=/search

I'm glad you brought up watches particularly 'Arnold & Son' because if you showed me one of those today and expected me to be impressed you'd be greeted with a blank stare. I know nothing of high end watches, and if I'm being fully honest, consider anyone who spends any significant money on a fancy watch to have a few screws loose. But apparently to those who know watches, they'd know it's a 'luxury good'. Likewise, a cycling enthusiast can spot an old De Rosa and recognize that back in the day that bike was pretty fancy. Someone else with no cycling knowledge wouldn't be able to differentiate from a Schwinn of that era.

[HammerTime2]

Anyway, I just took a look at Giant's offerings and couldn't help but notice that they have a $12,500 road bike: https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/prope ... -sl-0-2023

So a Scott Foil RC is $16k (https://www.scott-sports.com/us/en/prod ... =290337047). Right off the bat I see a few major differences, namely the in-house branded wheels on the Giant and the Zipps on Scott. Whether or not that and the remaining differences are worth $3.5k to you doesn't make Scott's offering a scam and Giant's a good deal.
...
For most people, though, (ignoring the few cycling enthusiasts) a bike above $500 isn't even going to be considered. I can get this 'nice' road bike for $400 from Walmart after all: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Vilano-Shado ... om=/search

Unlike those expensive bikes, the Walmart bike comes complete with pedals, ready to ride. And has 14 speeds, unlike those expensive bikes which only have 12 speeds.

Of course, the 14 speed Walmart bike uses the old convention of counting the total number of gears, not cogs, i.e., 14 = 2 times 7. Ten Speed Drive Imports was so named when 10 speed meant the total number of gears: 2 times 5.

[ichobi]

The bike will cost what the market will pay regardless of what it costs to make and sell the bike :re why road bike is more expensive than fancy suspension mtb. Isn’t that always the case for road vs mtb?

For some weird reason road bike has this weird pristine “elite” status to it as opposed to other disciplines. Which am sure contributes to part of the current cost structure.

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[UpFromOne]

There can't be that many uber-high-end buyers. One who spends 10K+ on a bike probably has several in that range.
I speculate that 99% of riders don't buy such bikes, but the high end offerings are more than 1% of the market, esp. with all the hand-built makers.

[Ypuh]

Not sure where you're riding, road cycling might be a bit less popular in the US, but go to a cyclo event in western Europe and you'll meet the largest collection of Tarmac SL7's and SL8's. Not sure if all of them cost 10k+, I assume they might still be slightly below.

With everyday rides/clubs they are a bit more rare. 10k+ is indeed the 1% category, but the 7-10k sure is very present. You won't complete a regular 50km ride here without passing a bike in that price bracket. €7-8k sounds justifiable to me though. The amount of pleasure I gain from this hobby far exceeds that amount, even though I can have just as much/more fun riding my far cheaper Surly.

[Kurt1980]

The bike will cost what the market will pay regardless of what it costs to make and sell the bike :re why road bike is more expensive than fancy suspension mtb. Isn’t that always the case for road vs mtb?

For some weird reason road bike has this weird pristine “elite” status to it as opposed to other disciplines. Which am sure contributes to part of the current cost structure.

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Yeah, I think there is an aspirational and elite (good word actually, struggling to find a better one...) status attached to road cycling that's not in the mtb scene. It certainly has these themes of "for racing only", "ultimate performance", "integration", "precision", "focus", "discipline" and similar.

Elite mtb obviously has that. But it also has hippie, weed smoking roots, with branches of "gnarly bro", and competition judged by style rather than time (see Redbull Rampage for instance).

I'd say there is a sneaky classism at play here. I say that as a huge mtb fan for basically 30 years, and only recent roadie convert.

[warthog101]

Anyway, I just took a look at Giant's offerings and couldn't help but notice that they have a $12,500 road bike: https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/prope ... -sl-0-2023

So a Scott Foil RC is $16k (https://www.scott-sports.com/us/en/prod ... =290337047). Right off the bat I see a few major differences, namely the in-house branded wheels on the Giant and the Zipps on Scott. Whether or not that and the remaining differences are worth $3.5k to you doesn't make Scott's offering a scam and Giant's a good deal. They are both quite expensive for what amounts to a recreational toy for most of us. Then again, add another '0' on the end of my yearly earnings and I'd see those prices a lot differently.

You make that what wheelset comparison with what sounds like an assumption the "house branded" wheelset on the Giant are an inferior and cheap product.
Those cadex wheels ain't cheap and are apparently lighter and more aero.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/reviews/cad ... et-review/

[ultimobici]

You make that what wheelset comparison with what sounds like an assumption the "house branded" wheelset on the Giant are an inferior and cheap product.
Those cadex wheels ain't cheap and are apparently lighter and more aero.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/reviews/cad ... et-review/

I don’t think that was the point being made. By keeping as much of the bike “in house” a manufacturer can reduce their costs and undercut the competition. Some manufacturers pass the saving on, while others keep the extra profit.


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[Nickldn]

You make that what wheelset comparison with what sounds like an assumption the "house branded" wheelset on the Giant are an inferior and cheap product.
Those cadex wheels ain't cheap and are apparently lighter and more aero.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/reviews/cad ... et-review/

I don’t think that was the point being made. By keeping as much of the bike “in house” a manufacturer can reduce their costs and undercut the competition. Some manufacturers pass the saving on, while others keep the extra profit.


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Look, these Cadex wheels are one of the few OEM wheel products out there with a good level of innovation: carbon spokes, light hubs and great quality hook rims. They are a fantastic wheelset, which make the Propel a very good bike. Zipp wheelset on the Scott....not so much. There seems to be a bit of an issue with ETRTO compatibility and 25mm tyres, which is the width required for optimum aero. I wouldn't buy into that at any price.

[warthog101]

You make that what wheelset comparison with what sounds like an assumption the "house branded" wheelset on the Giant are an inferior and cheap product.
Those cadex wheels ain't cheap and are apparently lighter and more aero.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/reviews/cad ... et-review/

I don’t think that was the point being made. By keeping as much of the bike “in house” a manufacturer can reduce their costs and undercut the competition. Some manufacturers pass the saving on, while others keep the extra profit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Look, these Cadex wheels are one of the few OEM wheel products out there with a good level of innovation: carbon spokes, light hubs and great quality hook rims. They are a fantastic wheelset, which make the Propel a very good bike. Zipp wheelset on the Scott....not so much. There seems to be a bit of an issue with ETRTO compatibility and 25mm tyres, which is the width required for optimum aero. I wouldn't buy into that at any price.

Yep, the Propel seems a better buy to me.
One of the blokes I ride with has a set of those wheels. Very nice indeed.

[Nickldn]

You make that what wheelset comparison with what sounds like an assumption the "house branded" wheelset on the Giant are an inferior and cheap product.
Those cadex wheels ain't cheap and are apparently lighter and more aero.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/reviews/cad ... et-review/

I don’t think that was the point being made. By keeping as much of the bike “in house” a manufacturer can reduce their costs and undercut the competition. Some manufacturers pass the saving on, while others keep the extra profit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Look, these Cadex wheels are one of the few OEM wheel products out there with a good level of innovation: carbon spokes, light hubs and great quality hook rims. They are a fantastic wheelset, which make the Propel a very good bike. Zipp wheelset on the Scott....not so much. There seems to be a bit of an issue with ETRTO compatibility and 25mm tyres, which is the width required for optimum aero. I wouldn't buy into that at any price.

Yep, the Propel seems a better buy to me.
One of the blokes I ride with has a set of those wheels. Very nice indeed.

OT, but I'll say it anyway. We're at a point in wheelset development where rim and hub advaces no longer generate noticeable performance gains. To go lighter/faster the next step is wide adoption of carbon spokes.

The Chinese (e.g. Farsport) and Taiwanese manufacturers (e.g. Giant) have made headway in this area and one, or two very expensive European manufacturers are starting to as well. Americans (e.g. Roval, Bontrager) seem nowhere despite high prices and innovation values. It's a shame for Zipp (a carbon wheel pioneer in my mind) and a few others who used to be at the cutting edge to hide behind increasingly improbable marketing claims to sell their wares.

If I was buying a carbon wheelset today it would have carbon spokes and it would not come from a European, or American brand. No innovation.

[KH1]

The most interesting thing about the Propel (and probably other brands) pricing is how much it varies (based on exchange rate) region to region. The SL0 in Australia is $15K (USD9625) (GBP7700) (EUR8978)... Buy a plane ticket to Australia buy an SL0, have a cycling holiday, take it home and still probably have some cash in your pocket

[Mr.Gib]

The bike will cost what the market will pay regardless of what it costs to make and sell the bike :re why road bike is more expensive than fancy suspension mtb. Isn’t that always the case for road vs mtb?

For some weird reason road bike has this weird pristine “elite” status to it as opposed to other disciplines. Which am sure contributes to part of the current cost structure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, I think there is an aspirational and elite (good word actually, struggling to find a better one...) status attached to road cycling that's not in the mtb scene. It certainly has these themes of "for racing only", "ultimate performance", "integration", "precision", "focus", "discipline" and similar.

Elite mtb obviously has that. But it also has hippie, weed smoking roots, with branches of "gnarly bro", and competition judged by style rather than time (see Redbull Rampage for instance).

I'd say there is a sneaky classism at play here. I say that as a huge mtb fan for basically 30 years, and only recent roadie convert.

I think you both have identified the key driver of the high pricing. Road cycling has been adopted by a higher socio-economic demographic market segment over the last decade or more. A good deal of the marketing now incorporates an element of glamour and status that was previously absent which further enhances its appeal to the well heeled. Take a look at some of the websites of the higher end clothing brands - beautiful people, exotic locations, etc. Truly an aspirational segment for those not yet in it. A powerful creator of emotionally driven demand. Save your pennies people, my guess is this is only going one way.