Is anyone completely done with these absurd prices?

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

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spartacus
Posts: 1049
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm

by spartacus

eucalyptus wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:32 am

How can any frame from Taiwan/China/Asia cost almost 3 times as much as something made in Italy?
First of all WRT manufacturing, Taiwan is not the same as China or all of Asia. Second of all I don't believe any European frames are really competitive with the best of what comes from Taiwan. Look at the Aethos for example, the low weight, lifetime warranty. Taiwan has a lot of high end manufacturing equipment that doesn't even exist elsewhere, such as their semiconductor machines. Lastly, when you buy a Taiwan made frame from a top brand like specialized you're paying for R&D and engineering that most or all European made frame makers don't even come close to. You're also paying for QC, marketing (team sponsorships, etc...). So next time you see several full pro teams in grand tours riding 700g aero frames made in Taiwan, maybe you'll have more of an appreciation for the big picture.

As far as rising prices this is no shakedown. Everything is more expensive and supply chains are in crisis.

misteryellow
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:04 pm

by misteryellow

spartacus wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:53 pm
eucalyptus wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:32 am

How can any frame from Taiwan/China/Asia cost almost 3 times as much as something made in Italy?
First of all WRT manufacturing, Taiwan is not the same as China or all of Asia. Second of all I don't believe any European frames are really competitive with the best of what comes from Taiwan. Look at the Aethos for example, the low weight, lifetime warranty. Taiwan has a lot of high end manufacturing equipment that doesn't even exist elsewhere, such as their semiconductor machines. Lastly, when you buy a Taiwan made frame from a top brand like specialized you're paying for R&D and engineering that most or all European made frame makers don't even come close to. You're also paying for QC, marketing (team sponsorships, etc...). So next time you see several full pro teams in grand tours riding 700g aero frames made in Taiwan, maybe you'll have more of an appreciation for the big picture.

As far as rising prices this is no shakedown. Everything is more expensive and supply chains are in crisis.
What R&D are we specifically referring to? Integrated handlebars that use conflated aero numbers that do not matter in real life situations, yet make a bike a headache for a customer? Or what about an integrated seatpost? Or what about an aero post? Why does their r&d continually frustrates consumers when it comes to repairability and second-hand selling? Paying for QC? There are countless of problems with Specialized frames and other frames made in Taiwan. Have you seen the Oltre frames which has mismatched bottle mounts? Or what about the increasing number of frames that are recalled, like the SL7 and Factor bikes? Rising prices are not a shakedown? The Sl6 Sport went up 900 dollar in a couple of years. That is a 30 percent price increase.

Consumers are being tricked by marketing, bamboozled by bullshit aero marketing that makes their bikes hard to repair and sell, and price gouged by companies wishing to max their profits.
''Just because something is possible, doesn't mean it's a good idea. It will add unnecessary complexity with little, if any, real benefit. Part of the beauty of this sport is the lack of hand holding & arse wiping.'' - ultimobici

by Weenie


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misteryellow
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:04 pm

by misteryellow

tymon_tm wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:30 pm

nope, cycling wont be a blue collar sport anymore, afaik there is no such discipline anymore (ok, maybe boxing or heavy lifting). as someone who values riding far more than the bike, i do like nice gear. but a) i feel im being forced to spend premium coin on unnecessary stuff b) market is not driven by cyclists' needs but rather manufacturers' strive to squeeze a dollar anywhere they can b) again, most of these so upgrades make maintaining = using a bike such a PITA, they often create problems another upgrades must solve (like disc brake squeaking).
Soccer still is.
''Just because something is possible, doesn't mean it's a good idea. It will add unnecessary complexity with little, if any, real benefit. Part of the beauty of this sport is the lack of hand holding & arse wiping.'' - ultimobici

smartyiak
Posts: 343
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:20 pm

by smartyiak

misteryellow wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:51 pm
spartacus wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:53 pm
eucalyptus wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:32 am

How can any frame from Taiwan/China/Asia cost almost 3 times as much as something made in Italy?
First of all WRT manufacturing, Taiwan is not the same as China or all of Asia. Second of all I don't believe any European frames are really competitive with the best of what comes from Taiwan. Look at the Aethos for example, the low weight, lifetime warranty. Taiwan has a lot of high end manufacturing equipment that doesn't even exist elsewhere, such as their semiconductor machines. Lastly, when you buy a Taiwan made frame from a top brand like specialized you're paying for R&D and engineering that most or all European made frame makers don't even come close to. You're also paying for QC, marketing (team sponsorships, etc...). So next time you see several full pro teams in grand tours riding 700g aero frames made in Taiwan, maybe you'll have more of an appreciation for the big picture.

As far as rising prices this is no shakedown. Everything is more expensive and supply chains are in crisis.
What R&D are we specifically referring to? Integrated handlebars that use conflated aero numbers that do not matter in real life situations, yet make a bike a headache for a customer? Or what about an integrated seatpost? Or what about an aero post? Why does their r&d continually frustrates consumers when it comes to repairability and second-hand selling? Paying for QC? There are countless of problems with Specialized frames and other frames made in Taiwan. Have you seen the Oltre frames which has mismatched bottle mounts? Or what about the increasing number of frames that are recalled, like the SL7 and Factor bikes? Rising prices are not a shakedown? The Sl6 Sport went up 900 dollar in a couple of years. That is a 30 percent price increase.

Consumers are being tricked by marketing, bamboozled by bullshit aero marketing that makes their bikes hard to repair and sell, and price gouged by companies wishing to max their profits.
I'm gonna guess (yes...I'm totally making this up) that the truth is somewhere between these two. Surely there are additional costs for Trek, Speshy, and the like, but when you see decent frames coming out of Carbonda and similar for a grand or so...

I think the Aethos is a bit different as it's kind of a unicorn. But what makes an SL7, the new Enve, or any of the other "fancy" framesets worth >$5K? I'd argue a bunch is sponsorhip and a bunch is profit...moreso than anything else. After all: it's a bicycle frame...there's only so much tech involved.
Last edited by smartyiak on Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

spartacus
Posts: 1049
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm

by spartacus

misteryellow wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:51 pm
spartacus wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:53 pm
eucalyptus wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:32 am

How can any frame from Taiwan/China/Asia cost almost 3 times as much as something made in Italy?
First of all WRT manufacturing, Taiwan is not the same as China or all of Asia. Second of all I don't believe any European frames are really competitive with the best of what comes from Taiwan. Look at the Aethos for example, the low weight, lifetime warranty. Taiwan has a lot of high end manufacturing equipment that doesn't even exist elsewhere, such as their semiconductor machines. Lastly, when you buy a Taiwan made frame from a top brand like specialized you're paying for R&D and engineering that most or all European made frame makers don't even come close to. You're also paying for QC, marketing (team sponsorships, etc...). So next time you see several full pro teams in grand tours riding 700g aero frames made in Taiwan, maybe you'll have more of an appreciation for the big picture.

As far as rising prices this is no shakedown. Everything is more expensive and supply chains are in crisis.
What R&D are we specifically referring to? Integrated handlebars that use conflated aero numbers that do not matter in real life situations, yet make a bike a headache for a customer? Or what about an integrated seatpost? Or what about an aero post? Why does their r&d continually frustrates consumers when it comes to repairability and second-hand selling? Paying for QC? There are countless of problems with Specialized frames and other frames made in Taiwan. Have you seen the Oltre frames which has mismatched bottle mounts? Or what about the increasing number of frames that are recalled, like the SL7 and Factor bikes? Rising prices are not a shakedown? The Sl6 Sport went up 900 dollar in a couple of years. That is a 30 percent price increase.

Consumers are being tricked by marketing, bamboozled by bullshit aero marketing that makes their bikes hard to repair and sell, and price gouged by companies wishing to max their profits.
Sounds like you have it all figured out.

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guyc
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Location: Hampshire, England
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by guyc

Yep. It's out of hand now. I earn decent money but I'm just shocked at some of the prices now.

I haven't bought a single item of clothing or bike kit aside from two cassettes this year. And it hasn't affected my enjoyment of cycling one bit. I'm off the train of perpetual 'this will be better than what I have'.

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LouisN
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Location: Canada

by LouisN

WHen I read some of the comments on sponsorship, seems like people think bike companies are giving up bikes to just about any so called pro bike team or athlete. That is not the case guys.
The vast majority of professional teams will have to buy their bikes with the team's budget from big sponsors (sure at discount prices ;) ).
The team will sell the used bikes after the season to recuperate some dollars.
But the bike companies don't "invest" or shed a dime on this.
Count a few exceptions for superstar athletes.

Louis :)

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Most teams I know get the frames for free. It’s the riders who don’t own the bikes, though they are usually given last year’s bike to train on. Yes some teams sell their bikes to make an extra buck. Movistar and EF/Slipstream come to mind. I have attended TIBCO-SVB’s equipment sales too…they didn’t pay for any of their bikes from Fuji or Cannondale AFAIK.

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C36
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by C36

Indeed, would even add that Continental teams or even important elite teams do not pay part of their equipment either.

For sales: most Spanish and French teams do sell their bikes, sky-ineos also (even if now seems to go threw pro owned).

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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

LouisN wrote:WHen I read some of the comments on sponsorship, seems like people think bike companies are giving up bikes to just about any so called pro bike team or athlete. That is not the case guys.
The vast majority of professional teams will have to buy their bikes with the team's budget from big sponsors (sure at discount prices ;) ).
The team will sell the used bikes after the season to recuperate some dollars.
But the bike companies don't "invest" or shed a dime on this.
Count a few exceptions for superstar athletes.

Louis :)
That’s not how professional team sponsorship works. Pinarello, Specialized & co typically pay to supply a team. That was how Sram had so many teams on their kit a while back. That is how Shimano & Campag can insist that their sponsored teams use their wheels.


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LouisN
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Location: Canada

by LouisN

You guys write about the situations I put in the "exceptions" list. Those few teams that are constant with bike brands I agree must have a full sponsorship deal, and a few also have direct $$$ from the big brands.
Maybe a "while back" like somebody wrote, it was common practice to give out stuff for "brand influence" but I would be happy to have the actual truth about all teams's real 100% sponsorship deals. I know a few UCI team owners (Conti level); and all of them have to write a check at the end of the year to the bike manufacturer. That's why they spend so many hours on the phone for better deals. Because it takes a good chunk out of the team's budget. Some decide to go for the lesser brands to get a better discount, maybe some rare full sponsorship (we saw a few years back many pro teams suddenly equipped with Microshift groups. Tell me now these teams could have chosen Shimano for free instead ;) ...
Louis :)

AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

eucalyptus wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:32 am
What I do not understand is the +5000 Euro/USD price tags on carbon frames. Sure, they are made of high modulus carbon jada jada jada. But still.
The high modulus thing is one of the biggest scams put on by the cycling industry. For example, the difference between the Specialized SL7 ($3300 frame) and the S-Works version ($5500) is tiny. Even Specialized now says that they ride exactly the same.

Ruckus, the carbon repair expert was on the Cyclingtips podcast a while back. He basically said that amount of high mod carbon material in an S-Works frame is miniscule. My guess is that they probably leave more resin in the lower end frame in order to differentiate the models. Or maybe they add a few lead pellets? :D

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/f ... 0474359104

Personally, I'm not falling for it. And I do have the money for a $12K+ bike if I truly wanted it.

I'd like another Colnago but this $7,100 full MSRP on the C68 is ludicrous. I had finally capitulated in my mind that maybe I'd treat myself to a C64 someday since they were usually discounted for around $4.5k. With the price increase of the C68, people now think they are getting great deals at $5500 having to directly import the frame themselves from Italy or the UK.

Now, I'm just riding my C59 for longer. Maybe I'll throw a fancy paint job on it.

For new bikes, I'm pondering a Specialized SL7 Tarmac or a Emonda SL7. On the Tarmac I'd get the $5500 etap model and add my own Farsports wheels for a whole bike under $6500. For the Emonda I'd get the $6000 model that comes with 12speed ultegra di2 and carbon wheels (probably the better deal over the Tarmac). Both would be absolutely fine modern aero bikes with electronic shifting.

I just won't pay $7k for an Italian frameset or $5k for a Campagnolo EPS groupset even though I'd been a Campy rider forever. I have literally had one bike with Shimano in 40 years. My other idea is the $3300 Tarmac frameset plus a Chorus or Record groupset and some wheels.

I know I sound like a grumpy old man but I just refuse to participate on $7,000 frames with short hard to collect on warranties. And I refuse to participate on $5000 groupsets just on principle.
Last edited by AJS914 on Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bigger Gear
Posts: 560
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:58 pm
Location: Wet coast, Canada

by Bigger Gear

I've gotten to the point in my early-mid 50s to just let go of the arms race that is cycling technology. The cost of buying a top end racing machine is beyond ridiculous.
I'm not racing anymore, I don't need to worry about performance at the bleeding edge. I still like to ride hard, and I still like a certain quality in my equipment but I am over dealing with a lot of the race-specific tech as well. My favourite bikes are the ones I build up and after initial shakedowns they require not much more than routine maintenance for their lifetime. I can ride hard on my steel/winter gravel bike with 35C slick tires and feel just as wrecked as I would riding hard on a Specialized SL7. I have an older Trek Madone circa 2011 that I rebuilt with 11spd DA/Ultegra mix. It's 95% of the last rim-brake Emonda model. I'm happy to ride it and keep it running, but it could really use a better paint job! I have an older Moots Compact SL rebuilt with 9100, I love riding it but wish I had just a bit more room at the chainstays for a tire wider than 27 mm.

A couple of weeks ago I was out riding solo and ran into a guy a on a brand new Trek Emonda SLR 9. Project 1, full Dura-Ace 9200 and the ICON Ruby Chrome paint job. I rolled up beside to comment on how fantastic that paint job looked in real life (first time I'd seen it in person and it truly looks amazing to me) and we chatted for a bit. He had not bought a new bike since 2010, and just plunked down $19K Cdn for this unit. To say the guy was in buyer's remorse would be an understatement. Quite a surprising reaction to hear someone so upset with himself for this purchase. He looked to be about my age, mid-50s and since we were both riding mid-day on a Wednesday I assume he has the financial situation to be able to afford the bike no problem. I rolled with him for a few minutes, then we parted ways. I told him again how fantastic the bike looked, hope he can appreciate it again once he's through the remorse phase.

GaBa
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:01 pm

by GaBa

I am done with prices as well as with pushing disc brakes. It just turned me off. Will be repairing and rebuilding existing Dogma F8 if all goes as planned. Rim brake + mechanical Campagnolo is the idea.

Bought a MTB just a week ago though. Will be using it to alternate with road as well as for family trips. Moved quickly once I learned model I was looking for will be carry-over to 2023 bit price will increase from 3,800€ to 4,400€. Was I not able to get it this year I'd not buy it in 2023 just out of principle.

by Weenie


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theStig
Posts: 421
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:22 am

by theStig

They are predicting home prices and used car prices will plummet with the coming recession. I wonder if that will hold true for the bike/bike parts market.

For all the companies that ramped up production, maybe they will be left with excess inventory when demand for $7000 framesets evaporate.

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