Is anyone completely done with these absurd prices?

Questions about bike hire abroad and everything light bike related. No off-topic chat please

Moderators: robbosmans, Moderator Team

jasjas
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:15 am

by jasjas

Pottermouse wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:32 am
My own thoughts. My road bike is a 2014 SuperSix Evo Ultegra. Paid about £2,000 new. Love it, but it is falling apart. Braze ons debonding, so rear brake cable now held on with zip-ties. This does not affect my enjoyment (or indeed the quality) of the ride. But I accept it is time to change. Like-for-like probably about £6-7,000 now... perhaps more. That stings (it used to get... yaddah yaddah...), and not convinced that it would increase my riding pleasure though. So why not go with 105? I doubt the riding pleasure would suffer and it is probably a sensible choice... but I have always been an Ultegra person. No reason, just have. Feels like a big step down - would I regret it?. But then again the £1,500 saved = a nice bike holiday abroad.

The point is that every decision is personal, and (unless we are blessed with bottomless pockets), most of us are balancing competing demands that cannot be completely reconciled.
TBH i ve a DA TCR pro0 and DA Look 595, both 9100, this May hired a TCR with r7000 but upgraded the wheels to carbon, if i could ride blindfolded, i wouldn't have known the difference, maybe there was less than 1kg in it, the shifting was every so different but not worse.

I ve just got a r8000 groupset to go on another TCR, that will be even less of a difference.

Manufactures saw what folk would pay during lockdown and just kept upping the stakes... no other reason to be doubling bike prices.

maxim809
Moderator
Posts: 762
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:28 am

by maxim809

jadedaid wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:04 am
Too often cycling is type 2 fun. I don't see many of the new cyclists today lasting beyond 2 winters on the turbo and rollers. Let's enjoy this wave for long as it's here.
This is exactly what I see too. Most cyclists only last 2-3 years before they lose interest, hit some kind of plateau, or have new life priorities take over.

Cycling is a very time consuming sport, and you really need to say "NO" to a lot of other competing priorities in order to make time for it.

You're right on enjoying the recent wave. The other great thing is that while most will hang up their bikes after their 2 year stints have expired, a few will convert to life-long cyclists. Some of these candidates may never have picked up cycling if it weren't for the wave. Capturing anyone who has a passion for the sport is a good thing to me.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



misteryellow
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:04 pm

by misteryellow

hpsims wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:14 pm
Just noticed cervelo prices in Canada. All their -5 labelled bike frames are $7k compared to $5k last year. Their dura ace bikes are now all $16k vs $11k last year. Screw all them all. Just going to have to stick with my 2010 R3 until I die basically.
It is ridiculous. Unfortunately I feel that many brands realise that it is easier to sell very expensive bikes to rich people than nice bikes to middle class and up. Rich people have no problem paying for products with a very high margin and are also recession resistent. I mean, many middle class will not buy a nice bikes with these energy prices but rich people have no problem affording them. And with cycling becoming a status driven sport I feel this will become an even bigger issue. I see this happening in other industries too. Some goods are becoming either inaccessible or of lesser quality to a crunching middle class, while the upper class continues to enjoy these goods and is at times the only one to access quality goods.
''Just because something is possible, doesn't mean it's a good idea. It will add unnecessary complexity with little, if any, real benefit. Part of the beauty of this sport is the lack of hand holding & arse wiping.'' - ultimobici

User avatar
ultimobici
in the industry
Posts: 3814
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:45 pm
Location: Trento, Italia
Contact:

by ultimobici

misteryellow wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:32 pm
hpsims wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:14 pm
Just noticed cervelo prices in Canada. All their -5 labelled bike frames are $7k compared to $5k last year. Their dura ace bikes are now all $16k vs $11k last year. Screw all them all. Just going to have to stick with my 2010 R3 until I die basically.
It is ridiculous. Unfortunately I feel that many brands realise that it is easier to sell very expensive bikes to rich people than nice bikes to middle class and up. Rich people have no problem paying for products with a very high margin and are also recession resistent. I mean, many middle class will not buy a nice bikes with these energy prices but rich people have no problem affording them. And with cycling becoming a status driven sport I feel this will become an even bigger issue. I see this happening in other industries too. Some goods are becoming either inaccessible or of lesser quality to a crunching middle class, while the upper class continues to enjoy these goods and is at times the only one to access quality goods.
A fair bit of the increase is due to massively increased shipping costs from the Far East where much of the industry has its production. Between late 2019 and late 2021 the cost increased fivefold. It's only in the last 6 months or so that it has started to come down, but it is still 50% more expensive to ship product. Add into the mix that raw materials are costlier too and you'll begin to see where some of the increase comes from. I'm sure there are some manufacturers taking the opportunity to add a little more to their bottom line, but most aren't. Last time I checked, no one is being forced to buy AXS Red, Dura Ace or Super Record. ;)

User avatar
wheelsONfire
Posts: 5363
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

Seen several SL 7 bikes sold at discount. Though still expensive.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2018.12.21)
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156137
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D

calleking
Posts: 345
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:20 pm

by calleking

I opted for a premium chinese frame (Seka) instead of something overpriced. I really want to support my local LBS but can't justify spending 5k on a Filante frameset so I will resort to buying bits and pieces plus some clothing from them until prices hopefully drop.
2021 Cannondale Scalpel Carbon 2
2016 CAAD12 - SRAM Red 22 - Hyper 50mm

Retired:
2018 S-Works Tarmac SL6 Sagan Superstar DA 9150
2016 Aeroad CF SLX UDi2

User avatar
guyc
Posts: 1559
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:40 am
Location: Hampshire, England
Contact:

by guyc

ultimobici wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:01 pm
Last time I checked, no one is being forced to buy AXS Red, Dura Ace or Super Record. ;)
No, but the net result is that 105 bikes are mad money in comparison, and there's little doubt to me that the entey price to this sport is higher and higher.

How that works in a global recession remains to be seen.

peroni
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:31 am
Location: Italy

by peroni

Pottermouse wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:32 am
My own thoughts. My road bike is a 2014 SuperSix Evo Ultegra. Paid about £2,000 new. Love it, but it is falling apart. Braze ons debonding, so rear brake cable now held on with zip-ties. This does not affect my enjoyment (or indeed the quality) of the ride. But I accept it is time to change. Like-for-like probably about £6-7,000 now... perhaps more. That stings (it used to get... yaddah yaddah...), and not convinced that it would increase my riding pleasure though. So why not go with 105? I doubt the riding pleasure would suffer and it is probably a sensible choice... but I have always been an Ultegra person. No reason, just have. Feels like a big step down - would I regret it?. But then again the £1,500 saved = a nice bike holiday abroad.

The point is that every decision is personal, and (unless we are blessed with bottomless pockets), most of us are balancing competing demands that cannot be completely reconciled.
Since you used the £ sign I assume you're located somewhere in UK. I just checked the Canyon site and for 2900 GBP you can bring home an excellent Ultimate CF SL 8 Ultegra Disc that includes a power meter.
I'm sure there are other companies with similar prices or even lower.
Bianchi Oltre XR2 2014 Campagnolo SR

jasjas
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:15 am

by jasjas

peroni wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:27 pm
Pottermouse wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:32 am
My own thoughts. My road bike is a 2014 SuperSix Evo Ultegra. Paid about £2,000 new. Love it, but it is falling apart. Braze ons debonding, so rear brake cable now held on with zip-ties. This does not affect my enjoyment (or indeed the quality) of the ride. But I accept it is time to change. Like-for-like probably about £6-7,000 now... perhaps more. That stings (it used to get... yaddah yaddah...), and not convinced that it would increase my riding pleasure though. So why not go with 105? I doubt the riding pleasure would suffer and it is probably a sensible choice... but I have always been an Ultegra person. No reason, just have. Feels like a big step down - would I regret it?. But then again the £1,500 saved = a nice bike holiday abroad.

The point is that every decision is personal, and (unless we are blessed with bottomless pockets), most of us are balancing competing demands that cannot be completely reconciled.
Since you used the £ sign I assume you're located somewhere in UK. I just checked the Canyon site and for 2900 GBP you can bring home an excellent Ultimate CF SL 8 Ultegra Disc that includes a power meter.
I'm sure there are other companies with similar prices or even lower.
thats the older and out of production? 11sp & its now 3.2k, the current 12sp models are around 4k, personally, i'd see the SLX range as equivalent to the Super Six Evo.

Pottermouse
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:55 pm

by Pottermouse

Its a decent price....agree that the SLX is a better comparison though (at least to the HiMod)

FartofDarkness
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:15 am

by FartofDarkness

ultimobici wrote:
misteryellow wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:32 pm
hpsims wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:14 pm
Just noticed cervelo prices in Canada. All their -5 labelled bike frames are $7k compared to $5k last year. Their dura ace bikes are now all $16k vs $11k last year. Screw all them all. Just going to have to stick with my 2010 R3 until I die basically.
It is ridiculous. Unfortunately I feel that many brands realise that it is easier to sell very expensive bikes to rich people than nice bikes to middle class and up. Rich people have no problem paying for products with a very high margin and are also recession resistent. I mean, many middle class will not buy a nice bikes with these energy prices but rich people have no problem affording them. And with cycling becoming a status driven sport I feel this will become an even bigger issue. I see this happening in other industries too. Some goods are becoming either inaccessible or of lesser quality to a crunching middle class, while the upper class continues to enjoy these goods and is at times the only one to access quality goods.
A fair bit of the increase is due to massively increased shipping costs from the Far East where much of the industry has its production. Between late 2019 and late 2021 the cost increased fivefold. It's only in the last 6 months or so that it has started to come down, but it is still 50% more expensive to ship product. Add into the mix that raw materials are costlier too and you'll begin to see where some of the increase comes from. I'm sure there are some manufacturers taking the opportunity to add a little more to their bottom line, but most aren't. Last time I checked, no one is being forced to buy AXS Red, Dura Ace or Super Record. ;)
This Image. You used to be able to ship a 20 foot container from Asia to the US for $1500. Prices went up to $30,000 last year/perhaps early this year and have since pulled back, albeit to still-high levels. Likewise, domestic freight costs (truck) have shot higher. I’ve not done my homework on bike company PnLs but I’d be surprised if there’s some huge collusion to manipulate prices and margins higher. To be honest, it’s probably a case of they’re seeing higher input costs and passing it straight into us. On the upside, the only cure for high prices is high prices. The shipping issues have prompted a *lot* of investment in additional ships which are slowly coming to the market now, helping prices come lower. This should continue. Whether this then gets relayed into lower bike costs will be the inflection point when we see if manufacturers are adding to their margins and screwing us consumers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

AJS914
Posts: 5019
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I think part of the problem is that us enthusiasts had been conditioned in the past to go for a top tier frame and Dura Ace or Super Record or Record. It wasn't that much more than mid-tier.

Unfortunately, the bike industry has figured out that wealthier people will pay a lot if a certain product is seen as exclusive. Part of making it exclusive is putting the price out of reach of many people. Or, they do a higher price with a limited edition paint job. So, they have made $4K groupsets, $5-6-7K framesets with a minute sliver of HiMod fiber in them, and $2500+ wheels. To be a top of the line buyer these days takes $12-15k+.

But, mid-tier bikes these days are fantastic and as good as top tier bikes a few years ago. I'd look at Giants, the previously mentioned Canyons, or take a look at the Emonda SL7 for example (di2 12 speed, carbon wheels, $6,300). All the lower tier Tarmac SL7 is missing is an "S-Works" logo and the frame is $2,000 less. Specialized even says it rides and feels the same but weighs slightly more. If you need an S-Works label you are going to pay the big bucks.

Nobody needs $2500 wheels. $1000-1500 gets one a nice set of wheels without having to go direct to China. Wheels will measure within a handful of seconds of the top wheels in aero tests.

Berzin1
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:35 pm

by Berzin1

This reminds me of the exchange between two German generals in the film "Valkirie", who were considering a replacement for the previous saboteur who had just been arrested after another failed attempt on the Fuhrer's life-

General von Tresckow-"We're still in business. Find a replacement for Oster".

General Olbricht-"There's no one we can trust, not in Berlin".

General von Tresckow-"Then stop looking in Berlin".

We need to collectively think outside the box. Start looking at smaller, boutique frame builders and release thyselves from this relentlessly obnoxious carbon aero fixation and consider other materials such as titanium, aluminum and even (dare I say) steel, which last I checked was still "real".

Nothing you can do about the price of cycling shoes, but at least you can find clothing at decent prices (I've always done well with Castelli on price AND quality).

There. I just made cycling affordable for you guys. You're all welcome :D :D :D .

User avatar
guyc
Posts: 1559
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:40 am
Location: Hampshire, England
Contact:

by guyc

I've just bought my first mountain bike for about 25 years. Just an Alu hardtail but new it cost me less than £1500 and has a pretty decent spec. I came away from the entire exercise thinking that the road scene is just taking the piss now. Especially when I looked at the Madone in the shop which was £14500. A top spec e-MTB was less than £9k.

smartyiak
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:20 pm

by smartyiak

guyc wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:42 pm
I've just bought my first mountain bike for about 25 years. Just an Alu hardtail but new it cost me less than £1500 and has a pretty decent spec. I came away from the entire exercise thinking that the road scene is just taking the piss now. Especially when I looked at the Madone in the shop which was £14500. A top spec e-MTB was less than £9k.
I always get a chuckle out of this. I think "that MTB sure has as much "design" and "engineering" involved...plus: it has suspension! How can it be $XXXX cheaper????"

I feel the same about Sidi shoes. Top cycling shoes ~$550-600. Top moto boots: ~$550-600. There's gotta be as much tech in motorcycle boots and there's certainly more material. And I'd also question whether there's an "economy of scale" argument when talking these two niche products.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Post Reply