I went from a pair of Sidi Shot's which had a very limited range for fore/aft cleat position to a pair of Shimano Sphyre RC-902 which I think afford an additional 1-1.5 cm of range for the cleats. Although I used to race cyclcross on bikes with a toe overlap, when I intially moved my Shimano blue cleats to the full aft position allowed by the Shimano shoes, but I found the amount of toe overlap while riding the trainer to be somewhat alarming. I know it would be unlikely to have any issues except for during low speed 180° turns, I instead opted for a minimally further aft position as compared to the Sidi and now I get minimal rub of the toebox of the shoe on tight turns.ghostinthemachine wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:38 pmBut I'm also a fan of "cleats as far back as they'll go".
I'll probably try some adaptors with more offset this summer.
Mid-foot cleat position for road cycling
Moderators: robbosmans, Moderator Team
- Michael
"People should stop expecting normal from me... seriously, we all know it's never going to happen"
"People should stop expecting normal from me... seriously, we all know it's never going to happen"
Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓ Broad Selection ✓ Worldwide Delivery ✓
www.starbike.com
-
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Thu May 07, 2015 9:18 pm
Yes, i have sidi shot (i think) and combined with the latest time pedals there is noticeably less aft adjustment than any of my previous gen Sidi/time combos. Felt a little unstable the first couple of times i rode on it. Those Patrocleats should give me more than i had before.
Toe overlap isn't something i've ever worried about though, even on fixed/track, not going to start now
Toe overlap isn't something i've ever worried about though, even on fixed/track, not going to start now
- Tinea Pedis
- Posts: 8616
- Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:08 am
- Contact:
Hey Topher, seems like you might have gotten into a bit of bike fit hell here. I spend a lot of time thinking about this when it comes to cleat positioning and drilling with my cycling shoe company. Just a few thoughts.
The knee pain, assuming anterior, speaks to a saddle height situation. Which can be, by proxy, altered with saddle setback. So sounds like you arrived at the right desitination via the wrong road.
As for "overdeveloped quads and calves", have you seen what most cyclists look like? this is what should be being developed by riding!
You're also losing power because you're not engaging your strongest power producing muscle as much any more. An approach I would recommend to all my rivals, certainly. But anyone else...maybe reconsider.
Cannot help but feel this all-or-nothing approach to tinkering with your bike fit really is not optimal here. But that is certainly your call. But golden rule: change one variable at a time has disappeared faster than your max sprint.Tophergoggins wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:26 pmI recently moved my cleats from almost all the way forward to as far as SPD-SL cleats will go back without an adapter. I also moved my saddle forward until it felt good.
Long femurs not at all uncommon in bike fitting. If the fitter does not know how to work with it, I would suggest a different fitter. Which speaks to the second point - this could be worked around with saddle offset as well.Tophergoggins wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:26 pmI have very long thighs which has caused problems for bike fitting
Confirms, saddle setback (both clamped and offset of post) should have been considered before also slamming cleats back as well I feel).Tophergoggins wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:26 pmBy moving the cleats back it essentially moves the ball of my foot forward so I was able to move my saddle forward a corresponding amount and now my reach feels much more natural.
Quads are the most powerful muscle group, I cannot be sure who has recommended you look to engage the hamstrings and glutes more over the quads but that is certainly not going to help with power.Tophergoggins wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:26 pmI think my old bike fit caused me to have overdeveloped quads and calves and there was too much pressure on my knees. I would experience periodic knee pain which has now gone away.
Since my glutes and hamstrings are now a bit more engaged I think I lost a small amount of power since I'm relying less on my overdeveloped muscles. I expect I will make it up as my body adjusts and in general I think it's better for my body to have stronger glutes.
The knee pain, assuming anterior, speaks to a saddle height situation. Which can be, by proxy, altered with saddle setback. So sounds like you arrived at the right desitination via the wrong road.
As for "overdeveloped quads and calves", have you seen what most cyclists look like? this is what should be being developed by riding!
You're also losing power because you're not engaging your strongest power producing muscle as much any more. An approach I would recommend to all my rivals, certainly. But anyone else...maybe reconsider.
Only send this to my race rivals.
at first/until you switch backTophergoggins wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:26 pm
you may lose a bit of power or explosivity so focus more on comfort and balance on the bike at first.
This is true.
I recently started using adapters from midfoot cycling. They've eliminated my toe pain, numbness, and metatarsal discomfort, which is an amazing change for me. I've slowly been moving the cleats back and saddle down. Cleats are back around 20mm and saddle down about 15mm so far (there seems to be disagreement over whether it should be 100% or 70-80% - I went with 70-80).
However I've noticed that my hip flexors have become stiff and painful after a couple of recent rides (lower back too but that's probably the cold). It persists for 4-5 days. I've noticed my glutes being worked significantly more - a good thing as I felt they were seriously under-recruited previously - and my quads are much less sore after riding. Calves and feet much looser when on the bike.
Is the hip flexor pain likely to be a positional issue? I.E. maybe I need to move the saddle back a bit now that it's lower, or maybe I made a mistake and lowered the saddle too much. Or is this most likely an adaption period where my hip flexors must strengthen in response to my glutes working more? The first few rides with 10mm backwards movement I didn't get this. 20mm and I now do - but I also notice my glutes working harder.
I also changed to a higher stack and longer reach stem - increasing the aero / positional gain I'd already got from lowering my saddle height, allowing me to adopt a lower torso angle and much more bent arms. I guess the lowered torso angle could also have contributed to this adaption period, if that is what this is.
However I've noticed that my hip flexors have become stiff and painful after a couple of recent rides (lower back too but that's probably the cold). It persists for 4-5 days. I've noticed my glutes being worked significantly more - a good thing as I felt they were seriously under-recruited previously - and my quads are much less sore after riding. Calves and feet much looser when on the bike.
Is the hip flexor pain likely to be a positional issue? I.E. maybe I need to move the saddle back a bit now that it's lower, or maybe I made a mistake and lowered the saddle too much. Or is this most likely an adaption period where my hip flexors must strengthen in response to my glutes working more? The first few rides with 10mm backwards movement I didn't get this. 20mm and I now do - but I also notice my glutes working harder.
I also changed to a higher stack and longer reach stem - increasing the aero / positional gain I'd already got from lowering my saddle height, allowing me to adopt a lower torso angle and much more bent arms. I guess the lowered torso angle could also have contributed to this adaption period, if that is what this is.
-
- Posts: 780
- Joined: Thu May 07, 2015 9:18 pm
Finally stopped dicking around and ordered a pair.ghostinthemachine wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:38 pmI'll probably try some adaptors with more offset this summer.
Will see how it goes.
You surely want saddle forward 20mm, down a tiny fraction of that depending on how much you used to toe.RDY wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:43 pmI recently started using adapters from midfoot cycling. They've eliminated my toe pain, numbness, and metatarsal discomfort, which is an amazing change for me. I've slowly been moving the cleats back and saddle down. Cleats are back around 20mm and saddle down about 15mm so far (there seems to be disagreement over whether it should be 100% or 70-80% - I went with 70-80).
Everything I've read suggests you lower by the same amount or as little as 0.7-0.8x that you move the cleats back. By lowering the saddle you're then reducing effective setback. I haven't seen mention of drastic changes (forward) to the saddle setbacko0 ... and I couldn't do it anyway as it was already slammed forwards.wooger wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:39 pmYou surely want saddle forward 20mm, down a tiny fraction of that depending on how much you used to toe.RDY wrote: ↑Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:43 pmI recently started using adapters from midfoot cycling. They've eliminated my toe pain, numbness, and metatarsal discomfort, which is an amazing change for me. I've slowly been moving the cleats back and saddle down. Cleats are back around 20mm and saddle down about 15mm so far (there seems to be disagreement over whether it should be 100% or 70-80% - I went with 70-80).
I think I may have accidentally dropped the saddle a little too far, this combined with the unfamiliar position (for me) of actually having KOPS for the first time - previously I was miles off - has probably contributed to the soreness. Next time I ride I'll set the seat back 5-8mm and see how it is.
Last edited by RDY on Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In case someone else has the same issue I have, I recently changed pedals and cleats to SPD-SL on my trainer and started experiencing toe numbness where I havent on my Garmin/Look pedals and cleats, everything else being the same. Interestingly the Garmin/Look cleats are ever so slightly smaller in footprint compared to SPD-SL and so I think they were effectively further back and gave me no issues. While on the trainer with SPD-SL with numbness, I unclipped from the pedal and moved the foot/shoe up on the axle and pedaled to find instant relief. I will try Patrocleats to enable the SPD-SL cleats to move farther back than the shoe cutouts allowed.
- spokenwords
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:21 am
Im not midfoot but close to it. Close enough I have to drill my shoes to accomodate. I have dealt with a lot more toe pain over the years and the cleat position seems to be a primary player in that. I do think it may have something to do with issues from ultra endurance racing.
I would love to stop drilling expensive shoes and also not have to have additional adapters under the cleat (though I am glad the adapters exist). In that regard I picked up a pair of the Patrocleat pedals. I may do a write up review of them at some point but I will say there is room for improvement. They have been relegated to the trainer bike right now.
one other point: if a fitter uses KOPS you are using the wrong fitter. Considering shoes traditionally havent allowed enough rearward movement, moving the cleats all the way back seems a logical first step. I have found it helps new cyclists smooth out the pedal stroke a bit as it seems to create a better platform for pedalling ovals. Everyone is diffrent though. People with foot issues seem to he aided by rearward cleats almost immediately. ymmv.
I would love to stop drilling expensive shoes and also not have to have additional adapters under the cleat (though I am glad the adapters exist). In that regard I picked up a pair of the Patrocleat pedals. I may do a write up review of them at some point but I will say there is room for improvement. They have been relegated to the trainer bike right now.
one other point: if a fitter uses KOPS you are using the wrong fitter. Considering shoes traditionally havent allowed enough rearward movement, moving the cleats all the way back seems a logical first step. I have found it helps new cyclists smooth out the pedal stroke a bit as it seems to create a better platform for pedalling ovals. Everyone is diffrent though. People with foot issues seem to he aided by rearward cleats almost immediately. ymmv.
"Notice how the door closes when the chimes of freedom ring." Joe Strummer
"this goes to 11" Nigel Tufnel
Dont move to Austin
Major Taylor rules.
"this goes to 11" Nigel Tufnel
Dont move to Austin
Major Taylor rules.