Mid-foot cleat position for road cycling

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fruitfly
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by fruitfly

Yesterday I got some adapters that allow me to move my cleats further back, based on the number of triathletes who have adopted this, and the fact that I am unlikely to race in the future/spend most of my time on endurance cycling/Everesting. The adaptoers (Patrocleat) allow movement 24mm to the rear. On my size 47 feet (90.1cm inseam, 183cm tall) this gets the cleat 24mm to the rear of my metatarsal joint, but is nowhere near midfoot.

I tried it for the first time on a trainer yesterday. First impressions are that I didn't feel an immediate need to change my saddle height (77.5cm). I started low and raised the saddle until there was a hitch in the stroke, and then lowered it, and arrived at the same height as I usually ride. I didn't feel my hamstrings or glutes as much, so I moved the saddle back 1cm. Overall my pedal stroke was smoother and better balanced between my left dominant leg and right, my calves and feet were more relaxed, and that I could use one gear higher than usual for a given grade for the same HR and W (Fulgaz shows percent incline, and in small ring. This morning I don't feel any unusual soreness, but during the ride I noticed more pressure behind the patella and on the tendon below.

I haven't tried it on the road to see how I find increased wheel overlap, climbing out of the saddle, accelerating, cornering etc.

Anyone have experience they could share?

Thanks,
Hugh
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HammerTime2
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by HammerTime2

By keeping the saddle at the same height, you might have done the equivalent of lowering the saddle by the 3 mm thickness (which is perhaps the stack height increase by using Patrocleat) of the Patrocleat.

Indeed, it seems more likely to me that moving the cleat rearward would result in your wanting a lower saddle height. I think that not adjusting the saddle height decreases saddle to sole of foot by about 3 mm when using Patrocleat.

I would further expect that you might want to move the saddle forward if the cleat is moved rearward
Last edited by HammerTime2 on Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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fruitfly
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by fruitfly

Thanks HammerTime2-moved the saddle forward a bit and this improved smoothness of stroke, and reduced knee effects. I didn't lower the saddle, but the trainer is 1 cm lower than my road bike, so will adjust the road bike when the weather improves. Will be interesting to see how it feels climbing out of the saddle, accelerating, and turning.
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sib
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by sib

@fruitfly
I've read a little about the benefits of mid-foot cleat position.
I will be interested to hear how you get on!

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HammerTime2
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by HammerTime2

fruitfly wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:42 am
I didn't lower the saddle, but the trainer is 1 cm lower than my road bike, so will adjust the road bike when the weather improves.
I was trying to say that because the Patrocleat is 3 mm thick, and therefore increases stack height, the saddle to sole of foot distance has decreased by about 3 mm, even without changing the saddle height.
Last edited by HammerTime2 on Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fruitfly
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by fruitfly

HammerTime 2: Got it, I was trying to say that I didn't lower it further. On the trainer today I did a 1470m climb, and while the power isn't changed, at a given W, I can use one gear higher than before, so my speed for a given W/given incline has gone up. Also felt better at the end of the effort-I was having issues with calf and foot cramping, which have gone away for now.

sib: Thanks, will report back-so far so good! I am thinking of using one pair of shoes for bunch riding with less setback so I can still sprint, get out of the saddle effectively, and another with 24mm setback for solo endurance rides.
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Andrew69
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by Andrew69

Been riding mid-foot cleats for years
First started when I was racing tri's as I had an issue running off the bike where my calves would cramp badly

Started ridng the same position on my road bike and track bike and never had an issue. Maybe lost a bit of "snap" when sprinting, but power is still there or there-abouts so overall power/speed is the same, just "maybe" lost some of the inital kick (but I am getting older too so....)
Havent raced a tri in 10 years, but I still ride mid-foot cleats and wouldnt dream of going back.

When I say mid foot, I use speedplay pedals with a extender base plate on sidi shoes, all as far back as it allows me

fruitfly
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by fruitfly

Thanks Andrew69. Weather here not suitable for getting out yet, so will be very interested to see what it feels like on the bike. 4th day now on the trainer, and what I notice the most is more speed for the same W, and my cramping problems (feet/calves) have gone away.

As a 66 year old, losing my high end speed is an issue that has already been decided by nature, and I am likely to spend the next few years concentrating on endurance.
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Ypuh
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by Ypuh

Just a noob question. Why would someone ride their cleats all the way mid foot? I know riding on your toes ain't good either, altough naturally that would feel the best. Personally I ride on my toes and then 1-2cm backwards knowing this.

Ps. I'm asking this because I always 'feel' my knees. They've always been my weak point (340w FTP/78kg) and any cleat movement ensures that I feel them for the first couple of rides (pain is a big word, but it's by far my biggest annoyance with bike riding).
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fruitfly
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by fruitfly

Ypuh, I am trying it because my feet and calves were cramping, and I was looking for efficiency gains. I learned how to pedal a long time ago, when ankling (toe down on down strke, pull up with heel and calf on up stroke) was the thing to do. At higher RPM (>105) more power goes into moving your legs than moving the bike. With the cleat further back, your foot is more stable, the ankle does less work because it doesn't have to transmit power from lower leg to foot, and more power ends up going to your foot, and the calf does less work. Data show that with midfoot cleats, power is applied over more of the stroke.

The downsides are that toe overlap with the front wheel can be a problem, the calf can't be used in explosive efforts so ramping up to max power output is slower, and climbing out of the saddle is can be very choppy. Many say it shouldn't be used for road racing for these reasons.

The efficiency gain thus comes from less energy expended in the calves and ankles and power for more of the stroke. This shows up for me as lower heart rate at a given power or being able to use a higher gear at the same power, so I go faster.

I have weak knees, but haven't tried this on the road yet, so I can't tell you about the effect on the knees. My impression is that my whole leg is more stable, but this remains to be confirmed.
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RedRacer
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by RedRacer

fruitfly wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:01 pm

The downsides are that toe overlap with the front wheel can be a problem, the calf can't be used in explosive efforts so ramping up to max power output is slower, and climbing out of the saddle is can be very choppy. Many say it shouldn't be used for road racing for these reasons.
Size 47 shoes here and interested in this thread. I have been toying with the idea buying the Patrocleat Mid Foot Cycling cleats for my road shoes but perhaps only moving the cleats back 12mm rather than their maximum of 24mm. I always run my Shimano and Look cleats as far back as possible on my shoes but even in that position my cleats are much closer to my toes relative to the overall shoe/foot length compared to someone with size 40 shoes. When I (casually) analyze road shoes it looks like the front section where the cleats mount are +/- the same length for all sizes and the mid-foot to heel section are longer for big sizes, i.e. the shoes aren't properly proportional. Sprinting and peak power output is important to me so I don't to mess that up by sliding my cleats too far rearward but 12mm doesn't sound like a lot when my foot is ~295mm long :noidea:

fruitfly
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by fruitfly

RedRacer, I have size 47 feet as well (R=295mm), and agree that 12mm won't be very noticeable, and if anything, with get you to the "normal position" (dependent on brand-Fizik shoes had my cleat way forward of the metatarsal joint). My first try on the trainer uses the full 24mm available on a Patrocleat adapter, and this is not at midfoot on My Lake 403 47W shoes. My soles measure 31cm, and with the cleat at 24mm back, the pedal spindle is at 13cm (42%). I have yet to get outside with the shoes to see what happens to max power, and what it is like to climb, but predict that if you go back only 12mm, you won't notice much change in W. What I don't want to lose is the ability to climb fluently out of the saddle, since I never had elite high end speed, but I am a decent climber. I will report tomorrow on my first road trial at 24mm back.
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fruitfly
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by fruitfly

I did a quick ride outside today with my cleats 24mm back (max for the Patrocleat adapter). As expected, it solved my heel rub problem, and I didn't find it a big deal with front wheel rub because of the design of my bike, and because I must have learned in the beginning when turning slowly to have my R foot back when turning left, and vice versa. I also didn't notice being choppy out of the saddle, so I am going to leave the cleat 24mm back. I didn't do full gas sprints (not that anyone would notice). I remember as a teenager a helpful coach saying "Sprint, for XXXX sake!", which disappointed me as I had been giving it everything I had.....
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HammerTime2
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by HammerTime2

Which pedals are you using? Did you notice any decrease in stability due to the thickness (stack height) and design of the Patrocleat?

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Ant
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by Ant

I've gone 24mm back from 1st metatarsal joint too. No issue out of the saddle, saddle definitely wanted to be more forward. Done about 12 hours on them like that and no negatives I can see.

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