Is anyone completely done with these absurd prices?

[EtoDemerzel]

Relative to the last decade or more, I think those prices are flat to lower than mid range road bikes.
I actually think Di2 105 is close to "mid range" in quality and performance now. Arguably, that level of bike can be a fair bar of comparison
at even less $.

[MiSzA (PL)]

Relative to the last decade or more, I think those prices are flat to lower than mid range road bikes.
I actually think Di2 105 is close to "mid range" in quality and performance now. Arguably, that level of bike can be a fair bar of comparison
at even less $.

Difference between DA and Ultegra was always only about few grams and visual aspect; apart from making 105 a di2 model - I can hardly see any is at all - improvement in DA lineup; at least not such that would resonate with the price level they hold on to. But, as we all know, unfortunately, if there are people willing to pay - there is no incentive to lower the price.

[EtoDemerzel]

Relative to the last decade or more, I think those prices are flat to lower than mid range road bikes.
I actually think Di2 105 is close to "mid range" in quality and performance now. Arguably, that level of bike can be a fair bar of comparison
at even less $.

Difference between DA and Ultegra was always only about few grams and visual aspect; apart from making 105 a di2 model - I can hardly see any is at all - improvement in DA lineup; at least not such that would resonate with the price level they hold on to. But, as we all know, unfortunately, if there are people willing to pay - there is no incentive to lower the price.

I disagree with this line of thinking, actually.
DA is quite beautiful and it's the showcase of the brand for road. It's always been there to highlight their latest tech, finish and detail. That allows for trickle down in their lineup that benefits all price ranges.

The argument it's not worth the price, could be made for almost any part. SWORKS vs Specialized is the same mold, just slightly lighter and more than double the price.
Zipp Firecrest vs NSW - a few grams difference and double the price.

Many components top products are "marginal gains" but those details cost quite a bit more.

Back to DA and 105, there are real differences in finish and manufacturing. Personally, I think there is worth in DA. Value is always lower in top end anything.
105 Di2 is fantastic though. As a value group, I think they made a fantastic offering.

What I was saying is that if you want to compare to older groups, it would be more correct to compare old Ultegra to 105Di2 and not new UDi2.

[BikeTyson]

Relative to the last decade or more, I think those prices are flat to lower than mid range road bikes.
I actually think Di2 105 is close to "mid range" in quality and performance now. Arguably, that level of bike can be a fair bar of comparison
at even less $.

Difference between DA and Ultegra was always only about few grams and visual aspect; apart from making 105 a di2 model - I can hardly see any is at all - improvement in DA lineup; at least not such that would resonate with the price level they hold on to. But, as we all know, unfortunately, if there are people willing to pay - there is no incentive to lower the price.

I disagree with this line of thinking, actually.
DA is quite beautiful and it's the showcase of the brand for road. It's always been there to highlight their latest tech, finish and detail. That allows for trickle down in their lineup that benefits all price ranges.

The argument it's not worth the price, could be made for almost any part. SWORKS vs Specialized is the same mold, just slightly lighter and more than double the price.
Zipp Firecrest vs NSW - a few grams difference and double the price.

Many components top products are "marginal gains" but those details cost quite a bit more.

Back to DA and 105, there are real differences in finish and manufacturing. Personally, I think there is worth in DA. Value is always lower in top end anything.
105 Di2 is fantastic though. As a value group, I think they made a fantastic offering.

What I was saying is that if you want to compare to older groups, it would be more correct to compare old Ultegra to 105Di2 and not new UDi2.

I have a theory with Shimano and the color of their groupsets. Take 105, Ultegra, DA 12sp. 105 and DA are black. Ultegra is gray. My theory is that Ultegra is gray to get people to upgrade to DA.

So if you're looking at 105 vs Ultegra, Ultegra has functional differences. You get satellite shifters and the extra button for more functions or to control your computer. The RD gets higher gearing for faster speeds. The FD is smaller and sleeker. And you get Hyperglide+ or whatever it's called. So if you're comparing those two groups, Ultegra offers a lot to get you to upgrade. I chose the Ultegra shifters just for the buttons.

When it comes to DA vs Ultegra, you can say it's just weight. And it mostly is. But then you look at the color. Ultegra is gray that isn't that great looking to me. DA is black and just looks sexy. So my theory is that they make DA look sexier to get people to upgrade. I bought the DA crankset solely because it's black as opposed to gray. I think the Ultegra crank is ugly. I wanted black. And I wasn't going to go down to 105 because then you get a bigger weight gain. So basically, you get people who are deciding between Ultegra and DA, and they think DA looks better. They don't want to go down to 105 to get all black becuase you lose functionality. So you upgrade to DA. Or maybe this is my rationalization why I need to spend more money for DA.

[Greeners]

In my opinion, seeing how manufacturers have positioned themselves in the last few years with changes to bike design & trends. Disc brakes came along & for the most part people got on that bandwagon - fair do's. We also got a new trend in frame shapes/aesthetic. With dropped seat stays the manufacturers had another way of getting riders spending to keep up-to-date.
That's all I see in modern bikes, a revised standard of frame aesthetic & hydraulic discs being defacto.
As has been well written in previous posts, so many of us know we don't strictly need these new developments to carry on cycling like we were. All the gains are minimal. New bikes only feel new for a few weeks but the monthly repayments go on for years.

Peak road bike in my eyes is circa 2015. Decent carbon frame design with DA9000.

[Roel W]

I have a theory with Shimano and the color of their groupsets. Take 105, Ultegra, DA 12sp. 105 and DA are black. Ultegra is gray. My theory is that Ultegra is gray to get people to upgrade to DA.

So if you're looking at 105 vs Ultegra, Ultegra has functional differences. You get satellite shifters and the extra button for more functions or to control your computer. The RD gets higher gearing for faster speeds. The FD is smaller and sleeker. And you get Hyperglide+ or whatever it's called. So if you're comparing those two groups, Ultegra offers a lot to get you to upgrade. I chose the Ultegra shifters just for the buttons.

When it comes to DA vs Ultegra, you can say it's just weight. And it mostly is. But then you look at the color. Ultegra is gray that isn't that great looking to me. DA is black and just looks sexy. So my theory is that they make DA look sexier to get people to upgrade. I bought the DA crankset solely because it's black as opposed to gray. I think the Ultegra crank is ugly. I wanted black. And I wasn't going to go down to 105 because then you get a bigger weight gain. So basically, you get people who are deciding between Ultegra and DA, and they think DA looks better. They don't want to go down to 105 to get all black becuase you lose functionality. So you upgrade to DA. Or maybe this is my rationalization why I need to spend more money for DA.

Now you're analysing functionalities, weights, shifting performance,... (I always do the same).
Remember many people go to a bike shop and buy what the sales people tell them to buy or what their friends have or what they've heard from somewhere or read in an magazine or something that looks like what the pro's ride. If those people would all analyse their real needs and comapre this to what the bike market has to offer they would buy other stuff.

[EtoDemerzel]

Relative to the last decade or more, I think those prices are flat to lower than mid range road bikes.
I actually think Di2 105 is close to "mid range" in quality and performance now. Arguably, that level of bike can be a fair bar of comparison
at even less $.

Difference between DA and Ultegra was always only about few grams and visual aspect; apart from making 105 a di2 model - I can hardly see any is at all - improvement in DA lineup; at least not such that would resonate with the price level they hold on to. But, as we all know, unfortunately, if there are people willing to pay - there is no incentive to lower the price.

I disagree with this line of thinking, actually.
DA is quite beautiful and it's the showcase of the brand for road. It's always been there to highlight their latest tech, finish and detail. That allows for trickle down in their lineup that benefits all price ranges.

The argument it's not worth the price, could be made for almost any part. SWORKS vs Specialized is the same mold, just slightly lighter and more than double the price.
Zipp Firecrest vs NSW - a few grams difference and double the price.

Many components top products are "marginal gains" but those details cost quite a bit more.

Back to DA and 105, there are real differences in finish and manufacturing. Personally, I think there is worth in DA. Value is always lower in top end anything.
105 Di2 is fantastic though. As a value group, I think they made a fantastic offering.

What I was saying is that if you want to compare to older groups, it would be more correct to compare old Ultegra to 105Di2 and not new UDi2.

I have a theory with Shimano and the color of their groupsets. Take 105, Ultegra, DA 12sp. 105 and DA are black. Ultegra is gray. My theory is that Ultegra is gray to get people to upgrade to DA.

So if you're looking at 105 vs Ultegra, Ultegra has functional differences. You get satellite shifters and the extra button for more functions or to control your computer. The RD gets higher gearing for faster speeds. The FD is smaller and sleeker. And you get Hyperglide+ or whatever it's called. So if you're comparing those two groups, Ultegra offers a lot to get you to upgrade. I chose the Ultegra shifters just for the buttons.

When it comes to DA vs Ultegra, you can say it's just weight. And it mostly is. But then you look at the color. Ultegra is gray that isn't that great looking to me. DA is black and just looks sexy. So my theory is that they make DA look sexier to get people to upgrade. I bought the DA crankset solely because it's black as opposed to gray. I think the Ultegra crank is ugly. I wanted black. And I wasn't going to go down to 105 because then you get a bigger weight gain. So basically, you get people who are deciding between Ultegra and DA, and they think DA looks better. They don't want to go down to 105 to get all black becuase you lose functionality. So you upgrade to DA. Or maybe this is my rationalization why I need to spend more money for DA.

Well, of course they are going to make the DA the best looking. It's their flagship groupset. Everyone does that.

And yes, the further up the chain you go, it's diminishing returns. To get the more expensive finishes, titanium bits, weight saving machining, and details.
That's with everything from cars to groupsets. Halo products are exponentially more expensive.

But that's exactly how it should be right? Ultegra is the performance/quality sweet spot, 105 is the value/performance leader and DA is the halo product representing the best of Shimano road.

The same argument can be placed on a $65 helmet and $400 helmet that performs equally well in Vtech's safety ratings.

And Ultegra is considered "high end" to most out there. I think it's a great looking groupset.

[repoman]

105 DI2 still has comprimises built in, it's slower down shifting than mechanical Ultegra 6800. It's something I find sort of annoying...I have it on my gravel bike and I can't dump gears like I'm used to with the mech Ultegra that was on before which matters quite a lot in gravel to me (grades typically vary much more than paved roads and switch severity quite quickly). Brakes, ease of changing gears is awesome though. 12 speed vs 11 speed is completely unnoticed and I don't see much benefit.

I'd like to try Di2 Ultegra, if it can switch up the cassette or into the small ring significantly quicker I think it'd be worth it.

[Nickldn]

105 DI2 still has comprimises built in, it's slower down shifting than mechanical Ultegra 6800. It's something I find sort of annoying...I have it on my gravel bike and I can't dump gears like I'm used to with the mech Ultegra that was on before which matters quite a lot in gravel to me (grades typically vary much more than paved roads and switch severity quite quickly). Brakes, ease of changing gears is awesome though. 12 speed vs 11 speed is completely unnoticed and I don't see much benefit.

I'd like to try Di2 Ultegra, if it can switch up the cassette or into the small ring significantly quicker I think it'd be worth it.

Sorry I don't get posts like this. Yes mechanical FDs are generally faster on downshifts due to the strength of the spring, but is this really such a big deal, even on gravel? If you need your shift to complete at an earlier point just press the button half a second earlier. It's a bike, you're not flying a fighter jet in a dogfight where a split second can make a difference to a manoeuvre.

I use SRAM Red etap 11s, it has the slowest FD downshift in the world, but in reality it's not a problem as I can predict when I need to shift the front, on the crest of a hill for instance, or if there is a visible change in gradient. Once I'm in the groove it's never an issue timing front shifts. On the other hand I do like the smoothness and predictability of electronic FDs (yes even 11s Red), to me it's much more beneficial than a very fast shift.

[repoman]

It matters quite a lot when you don't really know what's coming up after a fast descent or even when you do. Situations where the slow downshifting becomes annoying is times say you are coming down a descent and are in the 50/11, at the bottom you brake for a transition/intersection into another road that is a very steep uphill, going from 50/11 to 34/36 takes ages on 105 Di2 compared to mechanical. Or it doesn't even have to be an incline after a braking point, it can be on a roller where you carry speed down and then sprint up to carry your momentum as much as possible, maybe when you run out of legs you are suddenly at a much steeper grade and need to dump the gears to be in the right gear to keep momentum/power up. Situations happens all the time if you ride in an area that is mostly very steep grade hills on dirt. Or even instances where you are going along and hit some sort of rough feature of the road that wants you in a lower gear like on jeep/mtb trails quickly. I don't think it would matter so much in road riding with more even road features/not super steep pitches (10%-25%). Dirt roads tend to be much more varied in how quickly they transition between grades compared to paved roads. With mechanical it's just boom you are in the right low gear, no need to think ahead because it's so fast and instinctual. I have to actually plan ahead with 105 Di2 for gearing on what's coming up a lot of times.
It's mostly about the RD not FD where you notice the sluggish dowshifts. Still feels amazing to just change gear effortlessly with a fingertip and hydraulic brakes are amazing. Every time I get on my crap weather bike with mech discs I can't believe how terrible and frankly dangerous they now feel.

[xiyuwang]

The shifting difference between 105 and ultegra is minimal, tbh. I have ultegra RD and cassette directly compared to 105 RD and cassette, I have to say the up/downshifting performance is about the same. The downshifting (going to larger cogs) is as consistent as it can be for any HG and HG+ systems. The upshifting performance is also almost identical. Yes, shimano says 105 does not have HG+, but this is 91.67% BS. Why? Because if you compare the cassette of 105 and ultegra apple to apple, you'd find they are almost identically shaped. 105 cassette has every bit of micro structure on the cogs to make HG+ working except the 17t cog. So, I am not surprised that the shifting performance is about the same.

Admittedly, 105 RD is slower than ultegra RD in the continuous shifting mode. But, here is anoher disgusting fact: if you just quickly click your button, it shifts faster!

In terms of FD... well, yah, 105 FD is scht. It is sluggish and often gives me some pedal shocks when shifting down to the smaller chainring.

[Kubackjeee]

Relative to the last decade or more, I think those prices are flat to lower than mid range road bikes.
I actually think Di2 105 is close to "mid range" in quality and performance now. Arguably, that level of bike can be a fair bar of comparison
at even less $.

Difference between DA and Ultegra was always only about few grams and visual aspect; apart from making 105 a di2 model - I can hardly see any is at all - improvement in DA lineup; at least not such that would resonate with the price level they hold on to. But, as we all know, unfortunately, if there are people willing to pay - there is no incentive to lower the price.

I disagree with this line of thinking, actually.
DA is quite beautiful and it's the showcase of the brand for road. It's always been there to highlight their latest tech, finish and detail. That allows for trickle down in their lineup that benefits all price ranges.

The argument it's not worth the price, could be made for almost any part. SWORKS vs Specialized is the same mold, just slightly lighter and more than double the price.
Zipp Firecrest vs NSW - a few grams difference and double the price.

Many components top products are "marginal gains" but those details cost quite a bit more.

Back to DA and 105, there are real differences in finish and manufacturing. Personally, I think there is worth in DA. Value is always lower in top end anything.
105 Di2 is fantastic though. As a value group, I think they made a fantastic offering.

What I was saying is that if you want to compare to older groups, it would be more correct to compare old Ultegra to 105Di2 and not new UDi2.

I have a theory with Shimano and the color of their groupsets. Take 105, Ultegra, DA 12sp. 105 and DA are black. Ultegra is gray. My theory is that Ultegra is gray to get people to upgrade to DA.

So if you're looking at 105 vs Ultegra, Ultegra has functional differences. You get satellite shifters and the extra button for more functions or to control your computer. The RD gets higher gearing for faster speeds. The FD is smaller and sleeker. And you get Hyperglide+ or whatever it's called. So if you're comparing those two groups, Ultegra offers a lot to get you to upgrade. I chose the Ultegra shifters just for the buttons.

When it comes to DA vs Ultegra, you can say it's just weight. And it mostly is. But then you look at the color. Ultegra is gray that isn't that great looking to me. DA is black and just looks sexy. So my theory is that they make DA look sexier to get people to upgrade. I bought the DA crankset solely because it's black as opposed to gray. I think the Ultegra crank is ugly. I wanted black. And I wasn't going to go down to 105 because then you get a bigger weight gain. So basically, you get people who are deciding between Ultegra and DA, and they think DA looks better. They don't want to go down to 105 to get all black becuase you lose functionality. So you upgrade to DA. Or maybe this is my rationalization why I need to spend more money for DA.

I fully agree with your view. This matte gray Ultegra crankset is so ugly I can't wrap my head around it. If I would by a bike with Ultegra the crankset is the first thing to swap. I wonder if you can sand the derailleurs and levers and the clearcoat them/paint for some nice custom looks. Maybe something like raw marble carbon structure.

[Tinea Pedis]

Remember many people go to a bike shop and buy what the sales people tell them to buy or what their friends have or what they've heard from somewhere or read in an magazine or something that looks like what the pro's ride. If those people would all analyse their real needs and comapre this to what the bike market has to offer they would buy other stuff.

You're assuming mag reviewers are all a homogenous group and make the same recommendations?

[RDY]

New Fox Wireless dropper is €1300. Spare battery nearly €100.

[spud]

^that's obscene. If they can get that much, god bless them, but RockShock make a very nice unit for half the price.