Derailleur Hanger Alignment Tools and....

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voicycle
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:38 am

by voicycle

wheelsONfire wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:30 pm
Oki, i got one of these copies (i guess). It looks identical to Park tools DAG 2.2.
If the tolerance is as good or not would be impossible to say. Using the alignment pin at 9, 12, 3 and 6, is pretty difficult to get the pin "exactly" at same distance at all 4 points. The longer the extension arm plus the fact that the arm is locked at the bolt (that goes in to the ears thread) and further next locking is the pin itself.
I have no idea how a more expensive tool would be better without actually testing one.
I used the valve (body) as a reference point instead of rim. I have noted that my hanger bends very easily after it have been bent at 2 occasions.
DAG 2.2 uses the thumb screw to lock the pin into a fixed position in the bracket so you know the length it protrudes is consistent (the L-R of the bike or the inboard/outboard amount). The bracket itself is free to move up and down the box steel beam (ie closer to and further away from the axis of the bolt that fixes the gauge to the mech hanger). The idea is that for the entire measuring and aligning process you never loosen the thumb screw, so the pin always holds the exact same measurement - you're just moving the whole bracket up and down along the main beam to get it out of the way and then into an appropriate measuring position again.

So you're supposed to lock the pin relative to the bracket to take an arbitrary first measurement - usually 6 o'clock and right at the base of the valve stem for me (but it really doesn't matter where you start or what point on the wheel you measure to as long as you keep the same point throughout). Then you slide the bracket-with-pin up towards the hanger so it's pointing at an empty space between spokes (say, ~5cm above the valve stem). Then rotate the wheel and gauge together to move both into the 9 o'clock position. Then slide the bracket-with-pin back out along the beam til it aligns with the base of the valve stem again and see if it makes contact, binds hard, or leaves a gap. Repeat for 12 o'clock.

3 o'clock is harder because in order to get into the rear triangle you have to remove the gauge from the mech hanger entirely and then re-install it (or loosen the thumb screw, move the pin, and lose your initial measurement). I usually don't bother with 3 o'clock and cheat that check a bit by making it more like 4:30 and/or 2 o'clock (just below the chainstay / just above the seat stay). I'm pretty sure this is what the updated DAG-3 solves - it adds a swivel to the pin-bracket so you can just swing the pin out of the way, making it parallel to the main beam, rotate the whole tool into place in the rear triangle, then swivel the pin bracket back to the 90 degree position without losing your measurement reference or unscrewing the gauge from the hanger. Also saves the hassle of constantly sliding the bracket up and down the beam to get it out of the way of the rim as you rotate. It's a very expensive tool though, so for those of us home mechanics that already have 2.2 it's probably not worth upgrading.

I'd guess even a knockoff will have all the main functionality of the 2.2. Hope that description helps - if not there's probably a youtube video somewhere that shows the process much clearer in far fewer words.

Or are you saying that on yours the thumb screw that locks the pin in place ALSO locks the bracket in a fixed position on the beam? I can see how that would make it cheaper to manufacture, but it would also make the tool kind of useless.

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

voicycle wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2023 3:31 pm
wheelsONfire wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:30 pm
Oki, i got one of these copies (i guess). It looks identical to Park tools DAG 2.2.
If the tolerance is as good or not would be impossible to say. Using the alignment pin at 9, 12, 3 and 6, is pretty difficult to get the pin "exactly" at same distance at all 4 points. The longer the extension arm plus the fact that the arm is locked at the bolt (that goes in to the ears thread) and further next locking is the pin itself.
I have no idea how a more expensive tool would be better without actually testing one.
I used the valve (body) as a reference point instead of rim. I have noted that my hanger bends very easily after it have been bent at 2 occasions.
DAG 2.2 uses the thumb screw to lock the pin into a fixed position in the bracket so you know the length it protrudes is consistent (the L-R of the bike or the inboard/outboard amount). The bracket itself is free to move up and down the box steel beam (ie closer to and further away from the axis of the bolt that fixes the gauge to the mech hanger). The idea is that for the entire measuring and aligning process you never loosen the thumb screw, so the pin always holds the exact same measurement - you're just moving the whole bracket up and down along the main beam to get it out of the way and then into an appropriate measuring position again.

So you're supposed to lock the pin relative to the bracket to take an arbitrary first measurement - usually 6 o'clock and right at the base of the valve stem for me (but it really doesn't matter where you start or what point on the wheel you measure to as long as you keep the same point throughout). Then you slide the bracket-with-pin up towards the hanger so it's pointing at an empty space between spokes (say, ~5cm above the valve stem). Then rotate the wheel and gauge together to move both into the 9 o'clock position. Then slide the bracket-with-pin back out along the beam til it aligns with the base of the valve stem again and see if it makes contact, binds hard, or leaves a gap. Repeat for 12 o'clock.

3 o'clock is harder because in order to get into the rear triangle you have to remove the gauge from the mech hanger entirely and then re-install it (or loosen the thumb screw, move the pin, and lose your initial measurement). I usually don't bother with 3 o'clock and cheat that check a bit by making it more like 4:30 and/or 2 o'clock (just below the chainstay / just above the seat stay). I'm pretty sure this is what the updated DAG-3 solves - it adds a swivel to the pin-bracket so you can just swing the pin out of the way, making it parallel to the main beam, rotate the whole tool into place in the rear triangle, then swivel the pin bracket back to the 90 degree position without losing your measurement reference or unscrewing the gauge from the hanger. Also saves the hassle of constantly sliding the bracket up and down the beam to get it out of the way of the rim as you rotate. It's a very expensive tool though, so for those of us home mechanics that already have 2.2 it's probably not worth upgrading.

I'd guess even a knockoff will have all the main functionality of the 2.2. Hope that description helps - if not there's probably a youtube video somewhere that shows the process much clearer in far fewer words.

Or are you saying that on yours the thumb screw that locks the pin in place ALSO locks the bracket in a fixed position on the beam? I can see how that would make it cheaper to manufacture, but it would also make the tool kind of useless.
Yeah, this clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXfvW0L3iLM

You also note that they say under 3mm at the rim/ valve is what they consider approved. So i guess my four points are approved since they are under 3mm off.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

bikeboy1tr
Posts: 1395
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

I made my own tool using the threaded pin from out of an old RD and then drilling a hole through a stainless flatbar and was able to get away with minimal clearnances where the pin goes through the bar. I use a straightedge rule to measure from the valve position on the wheel at the different angles. It seems to work well enough to give me proper alignment on the hanger. I think you can only get away with bending most hangers a few times as they develope stress fractures which weakens them enough to be on the sketchy side. I think I have bent hangers on most every bike I have owned but I always have new spares for all.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=154188
2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
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Kurt1980
Posts: 319
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:41 am

by Kurt1980

MrCurrieinahurry wrote:
Mon Apr 17, 2023 11:21 am
Isnt that Abbey one which u can also buy a stem attachment to set the lever positions?

Basso Diamante eps 12
Bumping this thread.

Does anyone that uses the HAG with this tool (lever setter) have some feedback? Seems like a good way to get things nicely aligned.

And more generally, is there a good reason to get a HAG over a DAG 3? Since I do all my own mechanic work I'm happy to pay extra, but no need to pay extra for no benefit.

Cheers!

dbordewisch
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:35 am

by dbordewisch

I use and have used a HAG for a long time. Daily at work in the shop, doing neutral support, and at home. The DAG 3 made improvements over the previous models. The ability to pivot or rotate the bar and to adjust or remove "play" in the pivot. Look for the small flat-head screw in the bottom of the pivot. This is very similar to the Abbey design. In the past, this was the one place where the Abbey always was better. Over time, the pivot developed play. Being able to remove the play narrows the gap between the tools considerably. The HAG is very compact and has few parts. The HAG also has the "cool" factor. However, neither of these affects how the tool works. Both tools will allow you to have less than the 3mm suggested in the video. Some observations from the video. Do not hold or touch the wheel while bending the hanger, 2:33 and 5:17. You are bending to a moving target. Bend once. Two or three small bends in one direction. Bending back and forth will quickly fatigue the hanger and lead to cracks and failure. My analogy is the little tab on a soda can. Bend it once, and everything is "OK." Bend it back and forth three or four times, and it will break off. Hope it helps!

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Kurt1980
Posts: 319
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:41 am

by Kurt1980

Well, got the HAG. I have no comparison point, but in and of itself, it's a very nice tool. Already used it on the Revolt to improve hanger alignment. Next up is the Foil.

I also got the lever alignment tool. Yet to use that, but will probably have a play in a week or so. I have a feeling the Foil's levers are out.

Cheers all!

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