Someone, aero explained in terms of clothes

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

I've been thinking about the subject of aero framesets and how it can be compared to clothes.

Riding a none aero bike vs a full blown aero bike, could this be compared (in drag/watt) to what kind of fit you have on your clothes?
Lets say you ride your regular none aero bike and you use an aero outfit vs something loose fitting, would this be a close enough comparison?
If not, feel free to explain aero frameset vs something else you simply can try (translate to)

Please level!
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

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robeambro
Posts: 1876
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:21 pm

by robeambro

wheelsONfire wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:22 pm
I've been thinking about the subject of aero framesets and how it can be compared to clothes.

Riding a none aero bike vs a full blown aero bike, could this be compared (in drag/watt) to what kind of fit you have on your clothes?
Lets say you ride your regular none aero bike and you use an aero outfit vs something loose fitting, would this be a close enough comparison?
If not, feel free to explain aero frameset vs something else you simply can try (translate to)

Please level!
I appreciate that we may want to simplify things, but sometimes extreme simplification is the best way to misinterpret things.
First of all - what's "clothing"? Is a helmet considered clothing for you? Are socks clothing? What about shoes? Shorts or long bibs? Even then, just like "non aero bike" can mean different things (e.g. a bike with round-everything tubes? With what wheels? What tyres?), "loose fitting" can mean different things (are we talking about Eroica-style wool jerseys? Or a decent fitting yet not aero optimised jersey?). And even if we were to define these categories, things are extremely subjective (e.g. in theory bigger riders may benefit more from aero clothing as they have a larger surface area) and depend on many factors (e.g. some clothing may work better/worse depending on one's position on the saddle, is the subject shaven vs hairy, etc).

I would suggest watching a few videos which, whilst not being perfect, can give some broad idea. To be taken with a lot of salt.

Testing without a mannequin would be fairly hard to trust, but e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMCL-PW ... =BikeRadar points to a minuscule saving for a speedsuit vs a baggy jersey,

there's other tests of various nature, mostly made by GCN and similar channels, this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd0fXhD ... el=GCNTech or this one being w/ Aerocoach so would tend to trust it more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3-55E8 ... el=GCNTech

The videos above all measure different things and find different numbers. I can't say which is better or worse, to be honest.

Tifosiphil
Posts: 387
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by Tifosiphil

wheelsONfire wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:22 pm
I've been thinking about the subject of aero framesets and how it can be compared to clothes.

Riding a none aero bike vs a full blown aero bike, could this be compared (in drag/watt) to what kind of fit you have on your clothes?
Lets say you ride your regular none aero bike and you use an aero outfit vs something loose fitting, would this be a close enough comparison?
If not, feel free to explain aero frameset vs something else you simply can try (translate to)

Please level!
I've always found the best way to explain it is that before you even start to consider a new bike (as long as you have a perfectly functioning bike currently) you will get the best W/$ saving by starting with clothing. Unless you have specifics on what bikes it's hard to make any general comparisons really.

A good way to maybe compare would be to say the new Canyon Ultimate vs the old one was a 10W saving. Similar to switching from a standard race fit jersey to a skinsuit

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wheelsONfire
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by wheelsONfire

Ok,

clothing means you wear cycling kit, perhaps a jersey not über tight (just say you size up for comfort).
A normal cycling helmet not the highest aero. But still an adequate or better.
Shoes, normal cycling shoes without aero socks/ covers.
Position would remain same on both the full blown aero bike as the none aero.
None aero meaning a bike that have round tubes or slightly box shaped tubes (box shape is the best shape to boost or maintain torsional stiffness).
With a full blown aero bike i mean something like S5, Madone or similar. Not SL8 or similar.

I don't aim to discuss the cyclist maintaining a super tucked in position, because most cyclist won't do that anyway.
I merely try to translate clothing vs full blown aero. Personally i guess clothing might do more that an aero bike does.
But still i am almost sure most people believe a full blown aero bike will save more wattage than what it really does.
Speed i consider is 25-35Km/h because a solo rider is more likely to be between these speeds.
How a group dynamics work talking aero isn't interesting here. I only talk of a solo rider.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

cberg
Posts: 321
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:30 am

by cberg

Something I found pretty crazy is that my friend tested our club TT suit (Verge), which uses smooth fabric on the arms, with and without a HUUB aero baselayer. The difference was 12 wattss at either 40 or 45 km/h. Thats like going from a Canyon Ultimate to an Aeroad.

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

cberg wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2023 2:45 pm
Something I found pretty crazy is that my friend tested our club TT suit (Verge), which uses smooth fabric on the arms, with and without a HUUB aero baselayer. The difference was 12 wattss at either 40 or 45 km/h. Thats like going from a Canyon Ultimate to an Aeroad.

I must say I prefer the Huub to the Rule28 based on fit. The sleeves stretch more and are more conformal. The Rule28 is really tough to put on. My only concern is the silicone grippers on the Huub will tear eventually.

mrlobber
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by mrlobber

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2023 5:47 am
My only concern is the silicone grippers on the Huub will tear eventually.
That's a totally legitimate concern if you wear them often enough. I have two pairs of sleeves from Nopinz and Aerocoach which both have become unusable within 2 seasons each as the silicone grippers are torn, and they simply slide down the calf.
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