The wheelbuilding thread

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

Moderator: robbosmans

Forum rules
The spirit of this board is to compile and organize wheels and tires related discussions.

If a new wheel tech is released, (say for example, TPU tubes, a brand new tire, or a new rim standard), feel free to start the discussion in the popular "Road". Your topic will eventually be moved here!
iamraymond
Posts: 624
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:59 am

by iamraymond

bobones wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:31 pm
I would be concerned about this combo being a bit too flexy under load. You will notice a lack of stiffness more than a 100 g extra on the weight of the set, so perhaps consider a deeper, heavier rim or 28H on the back. I have used those hubs on a light build (Mavic Open Pro UST 24F/28R with brass nipples that came in at 1380g) and they're pretty decent apart from the tiny 688 bearings in the RAF10 which may require more frequent changing. CX-Rays are great spokes but they're very expensive compared to Lasers, D-Lights and Race, so maybe you don't need them for a shallow wheelset. It's tempting to build the lightest you possibly can, but stiffness should be a consideration; however, you'll never know if they're stiff enough unless you build them!
Thanks for your input. Would you recommend going 24/28 instead of 20/24 with the RR411? Or maybe 20/24 with the R460?

Your proposition of Open Pros with 24/28 sounds pretty interesting. What spokes did you use to achieve that weight?

NickJHP
Posts: 462
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:22 am
Location: Canberra, Australia

by NickJHP

alanyu wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:53 am
NickJHP wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:57 am
alanyu wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:49 am
Better go down. Spoke will be elongated around 1-1.5 mm under 100 kgf, which DT calculator has considered IIRC. However, spoke will also creep under tension with the time going. You won't like no thread left when you need to retension it 1-2 years later.
Not so. I have wheels I built 20 years ago, and when I put my tensiometer on them, the spoke tension hasn't changed from the values I recorded when I finished building and stress relieving the wheel. Absent the rim cracking around the spoke holes, the spokes in a correctly built wheel shouldn't lose tension with use. The yield strength of the stainless steel wire used for spokes is several times the tension that the spokes see in a wheel.
Creep is not a thing related to yield strength. Solid can creep under the stress within its yield strength with time going. It becomes an issue when people build wheels with skinny butted/aero spokes and less counts (20/21/24), while on a traditional 28-round 2.0 spoke wheel, creep is negligible for years.
Not within the elastic limit. If you plot the stress-strain diagram of a bicycle spoke, the elastic limit of the spoke isn't reached until the stress exceeds about 2000N, well over the stress that spokes see in a wheel.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



alanyu
Posts: 1506
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

NickJHP wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:49 am
alanyu wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:53 am
NickJHP wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:57 am
alanyu wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:49 am
Better go down. Spoke will be elongated around 1-1.5 mm under 100 kgf, which DT calculator has considered IIRC. However, spoke will also creep under tension with the time going. You won't like no thread left when you need to retension it 1-2 years later.
Not so. I have wheels I built 20 years ago, and when I put my tensiometer on them, the spoke tension hasn't changed from the values I recorded when I finished building and stress relieving the wheel. Absent the rim cracking around the spoke holes, the spokes in a correctly built wheel shouldn't lose tension with use. The yield strength of the stainless steel wire used for spokes is several times the tension that the spokes see in a wheel.
Creep is not a thing related to yield strength. Solid can creep under the stress within its yield strength with time going. It becomes an issue when people build wheels with skinny butted/aero spokes and less counts (20/21/24), while on a traditional 28-round 2.0 spoke wheel, creep is negligible for years.
Not within the elastic limit. If you plot the stress-strain diagram of a bicycle spoke, the elastic limit of the spoke isn't reached until the stress exceeds about 2000N, well over the stress that spokes see in a wheel.
Do search what is creep. Creep doesn't require a stress more than the elastic limit, which is called as plastic deformation. Plasticity requires a stress more than the elastic limit, while creep doesn't but it requires a long time.

bobones
Posts: 1271
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

iamraymond wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:01 am
bobones wrote:
Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:31 pm
I would be concerned about this combo being a bit too flexy under load. You will notice a lack of stiffness more than a 100 g extra on the weight of the set, so perhaps consider a deeper, heavier rim or 28H on the back. I have used those hubs on a light build (Mavic Open Pro UST 24F/28R with brass nipples that came in at 1380g) and they're pretty decent apart from the tiny 688 bearings in the RAF10 which may require more frequent changing. CX-Rays are great spokes but they're very expensive compared to Lasers, D-Lights and Race, so maybe you don't need them for a shallow wheelset. It's tempting to build the lightest you possibly can, but stiffness should be a consideration; however, you'll never know if they're stiff enough unless you build them!
Thanks for your input. Would you recommend going 24/28 instead of 20/24 with the RR411? Or maybe 20/24 with the R460?

Your proposition of Open Pros with 24/28 sounds pretty interesting. What spokes did you use to achieve that weight?
I used silver Lasers on the front and D-lights on the rear, but the old glossy OP UST rims were much lighter(~410-430g) than the new matte version (~460g) so I don't think sub 1400 g is easily achievable with those now.

There's no rule to say you need 24F with 28R so I would think 20 at the front would be OK at your weight as it's under much less stress than the rear.

The R460s are good rims and a bit cheaper and stiffer than the R411s. I also like the Kinlin XR31T which is 19 mm internal/24 ext and is good for wider tyres and has some aero benefits. Should build to under 1500 g as 20/24 with CX-Rays with either of these and stiffer than the 411s although the 20H R460 is hard to track down.

charirider
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:00 am

by charirider

After my Tune TSR22 wheelset was damaged during delivery, I am left with a mig/mag 170 hub set (24/28h), which were laced once but never ridden of course (very slight dents from spokes at spoke holes).
I wanna ask what to do with it, I have a couple of thoughts:
1) Lace them to LB R25T tubular 25mm rims with some light spokes (your suggestions) for a 〜1100g wheelset
2) Lace to R25 clincher rim, or something like Velocity Quill (considering silver rims only), with regular double butted spokes, but weight would be in 1400g range
3) Sell them and buy a factory carbon wheelset, something like Zipp 302 and call it a day

Also, in case of re-lacing those, can I use radial spoke pattern at the front hub, as it was laced originally?
Attachments
B7297BCA-6518-43E1-A6BF-D57E0BE3519E.jpeg
2018 Cannondale SuperSix EVO 2 rim size 56 (raw stripped) 6.9kg
2014 Bridgestone Anchor CX6 Equipe size 55 (cyclocross) 9.8kg

shimmeD
Posts: 544
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:52 pm
Location: eNZed

by shimmeD

More interesting and satisfying to choose your own rims and spokes to your Tune hubs, which are very decent quality hubs.
And yes why not be a true weightweenie, and go carbon low-pro rims? I went for Farsport 23mm wide, since I ride 23mm tubular on the front (I have a 22mm Veloflex Sprinter to go on next). Mine are 20/24, so your 24/28 will be sweet too. I didn't bother getting the brake tracks grooved and don't regret it.
If you're going alloy tubular, I won't bother with anything else but go Hed.
Less is more.

NickJHP
Posts: 462
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:22 am
Location: Canberra, Australia

by NickJHP

alanyu wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 12:14 pm
NickJHP wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:49 am
alanyu wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:53 am
NickJHP wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:57 am


Not so. I have wheels I built 20 years ago, and when I put my tensiometer on them, the spoke tension hasn't changed from the values I recorded when I finished building and stress relieving the wheel. Absent the rim cracking around the spoke holes, the spokes in a correctly built wheel shouldn't lose tension with use. The yield strength of the stainless steel wire used for spokes is several times the tension that the spokes see in a wheel.
Creep is not a thing related to yield strength. Solid can creep under the stress within its yield strength with time going. It becomes an issue when people build wheels with skinny butted/aero spokes and less counts (20/21/24), while on a traditional 28-round 2.0 spoke wheel, creep is negligible for years.
Not within the elastic limit. If you plot the stress-strain diagram of a bicycle spoke, the elastic limit of the spoke isn't reached until the stress exceeds about 2000N, well over the stress that spokes see in a wheel.
Do search what is creep. Creep doesn't require a stress more than the elastic limit, which is called as plastic deformation. Plasticity requires a stress more than the elastic limit, while creep doesn't but it requires a long time.
You're talking about components operating at high temperature towards their melting point and with high stress, such as jet engine turbine blades. Spokes don't operate in such an environment. Only low melting temperature metals, such as solder or lead, can begin to creep at room temperature.

alanyu
Posts: 1506
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

NickJHP wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:14 pm
alanyu wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 12:14 pm
NickJHP wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:49 am
alanyu wrote:
Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:53 am


Creep is not a thing related to yield strength. Solid can creep under the stress within its yield strength with time going. It becomes an issue when people build wheels with skinny butted/aero spokes and less counts (20/21/24), while on a traditional 28-round 2.0 spoke wheel, creep is negligible for years.
Not within the elastic limit. If you plot the stress-strain diagram of a bicycle spoke, the elastic limit of the spoke isn't reached until the stress exceeds about 2000N, well over the stress that spokes see in a wheel.
Do search what is creep. Creep doesn't require a stress more than the elastic limit, which is called as plastic deformation. Plasticity requires a stress more than the elastic limit, while creep doesn't but it requires a long time.
You're talking about components operating at high temperature towards their melting point and with high stress, such as jet engine turbine blades. Spokes don't operate in such an environment. Only low melting temperature metals, such as solder or lead, can begin to creep at room temperature.
Wrong again. :noidea:
High temperature can accelerate creep, but it's not a must for creep happening. When it's near melting temperature, creep is significant.
Stainless steel can creep under room temperature, which has been studied since 50 or so years ago. :smartass:

Matija
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:35 pm

by Matija

Any ideas how to convert Campagnolo Shamal to fixed gear or reuse the rims with new hub?

MrB123
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:15 pm

by MrB123

Have got some Light Bicycle AR rims on the way, rim brake 46mm front and 56mm rear. Hubs will be Tune Mig/Mag.

Some questions for the wheel building experts...

Nipples - I'm after coloured Sapim alloy ones. Is it worth going for the double square design? Looks to me like they have a few advantages, presumably for a small weight penalty.

Spokes - go for CX-Rays or Pillar Wing 20s? Read a few things suggesting the Pillars are a bit stiffer. Weight is the same I think.

Lacing pattern - LB suggesting 2 cross drive side and radial NDS on the rear. Would that be a sensible choice or would 2 cross on both sides be preferable?

Thanks in advance!

demeaux
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri May 13, 2022 9:24 am

by demeaux

replacement pawls for 3T hubs - do they exist? I'm not getting anywhere with 3T and it seems bonkers to rebuild the whole wheelset because of a spring.
(my horse, etc and so on)

trailgumby
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:05 am

by trailgumby

MrB123 wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 12:20 pm
Nipples - I'm after coloured Sapim alloy ones. Is it worth going for the double square design? Looks to me like they have a few advantages, presumably for a small weight penalty.
Alloy nipples should be avoided with carbon rims, especially if riding on salt-exposed roads or using tubeless sealant. Apart from being weaker, they are very prone to corrosion, and turn to powder. Not worth the negligible weight saving. Black brass only for myself and every professional wheelbuilder local to me.

trailgumby
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:05 am

by trailgumby

Looking for help on good quality cost-effective carbon rims. As I run 25c tyres, something around 28 wide would be preferable.

I was looking to buy some LB Falcon Pro rims, AR45 front / AR55 rear but this section of Hambini's aero wheel buyer's guide made some points I kind of already knew on rim profile. That being, the more teardrop-like shape is more aero, and more stable. The more D-shaped cross-sections absorb more watts.

Farsports doesn't seem to show cross-sections, nor do they seem to sell rims separately. Who else is good besides Light Bicycle and Nextie that I should look at?


MrB123
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:15 pm

by MrB123

trailgumby wrote:
Sun Aug 21, 2022 1:15 pm
MrB123 wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 12:20 pm
Nipples - I'm after coloured Sapim alloy ones. Is it worth going for the double square design? Looks to me like they have a few advantages, presumably for a small weight penalty.
Alloy nipples should be avoided with carbon rims, especially if riding on salt-exposed roads or using tubeless sealant. Apart from being weaker, they are very prone to corrosion, and turn to powder. Not worth the negligible weight saving. Black brass only for myself and every professional wheelbuilder local to me.
Yeah, I've gone for brass after consulting my wheelbuilder.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



alanyu
Posts: 1506
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

MrB123 wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 12:20 pm
Have got some Light Bicycle AR rims on the way, rim brake 46mm front and 56mm rear. Hubs will be Tune Mig/Mag.

Some questions for the wheel building experts...

Nipples - I'm after coloured Sapim alloy ones. Is it worth going for the double square design? Looks to me like they have a few advantages, presumably for a small weight penalty.

Spokes - go for CX-Rays or Pillar Wing 20s? Read a few things suggesting the Pillars are a bit stiffer. Weight is the same I think.

Lacing pattern - LB suggesting 2 cross drive side and radial NDS on the rear. Would that be a sensible choice or would 2 cross on both sides be preferable?

Thanks in advance!
Nipple: double square is non-sense if you go TL with no bed hole.

Spoke: Yes, Wing 20 is a bit stiffer laterally, but not sure if anyone can feel the difference.

Lacing: I would go 2 cross on both sides. 2-cross NDS contributes more to the power transfer than radial NDS. Another choice would be a 28 hole Mag, but skipping half on NDS to lace an effective 2:1 21-hole, if you are not heavy/sprinter.

Post Reply