Weight Weenies

As I said, I run the 30mm and also 25mm Powercups in black, and particularly the 30mm "seems to be fast", so maybe you're indeed onto something here.
FWIW, I thought the BRR tested the black version but for whatever reason they bought both 25 as well as 28mm in tanwall, and they actually didn't indicate that anywhere unless you looked at the pics.

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Let's vote power cup clincher 28 in black then. There is already one submitted and I voted. We gonna have comparison to the tanwall and also see if the thread on clincher is better then on tubeless in larger size.

Tubed is a different construction. Mixing two variables at once doesn't work.

maxxis high road sl 28 clincher with new compound

Enve Hex 40 for me this month, curious how using the raceday compound one what is otherwise an identical tire to the Tufo Thundero could make the Thundero faster

BigBoyND wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 05, 2024 6:31 am

mrlobber wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 04, 2024 9:24 am

BRR have tested both the 25mm and the 28mm Power Cup TLRs. What makes you think the 30mm would be suddenly that much faster? Even though I see (from the pics) that both the Power Cups tested indeed were tanwall , the Power Cup clincher they tested was black, and had comparable RR to the TLR versions (if accounting for the butyl effect)

Not sure we can draw any conclusions from a tubed Power Cup which could use a completely different construction.

Black may or may not be faster, but there are several reasons there's a decent chance:
-S TR in tan walls is 15-20% slower than black
- JV mentioned in a Goodyear thread that you can expect 15% slower rolling with most tan wall constructions
- Schwalbe MTB tires are also slower in tan wall by roughly that amount.

There are different types of "tan" sidewalls, there are skinwall, gumwall, and tanwall; tanwall is the modern version of gumwall, while gumwall was a thicker sidewall they are no longer made like that.

Everything I've ever knew about differences was that skinwall tires are generally lighter, more supple, and faster rolling than standard blackwall or tanwall tires because they have less rubber covering the casing and you can see the threads.

Tanwall is just a disguised appearance to look like a skinwall, which means since both a tanwall and a blackwall are exactly the same in all ways, including weight, that means the tanwall is just a coloring agent and should not roll any faster or slower than a blackwall.

HOWEVER, according to Rolling Resistance it said "We're a bit puzzled by the transparent version of the Grand Prix 5000 S TR as our rolling resistance test indicates it rolls quite a bit slower than the black-black version." But maybe that is only true for that particular tire, because techically they are the same tire, unless Conti made some sort of change to the tanwall version, or maybe a different factory is making the tanwall and another is making the blackwall, and because of that the factories are making them different and that is effecting what they see on the resistance tests.

froze wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 11, 2024 3:32 am

BigBoyND wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 05, 2024 6:31 am

mrlobber wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 04, 2024 9:24 am

BRR have tested both the 25mm and the 28mm Power Cup TLRs. What makes you think the 30mm would be suddenly that much faster? Even though I see (from the pics) that both the Power Cups tested indeed were tanwall , the Power Cup clincher they tested was black, and had comparable RR to the TLR versions (if accounting for the butyl effect)

Not sure we can draw any conclusions from a tubed Power Cup which could use a completely different construction.

Black may or may not be faster, but there are several reasons there's a decent chance:
-S TR in tan walls is 15-20% slower than black
- JV mentioned in a Goodyear thread that you can expect 15% slower rolling with most tan wall constructions
- Schwalbe MTB tires are also slower in tan wall by roughly that amount.

There are different types of "tan" sidewalls, there are skinwall, gumwall, and tanwall; tanwall is the modern version of gumwall, while gumwall was a thicker sidewall they are no longer made like that.

Everything I've ever knew about differences was that skinwall tires are generally lighter, more supple, and faster rolling than standard blackwall or tanwall tires because they have less rubber covering the casing and you can see the threads.

Tanwall is just a disguised appearance to look like a skinwall, which means since both a tanwall and a blackwall are exactly the same in all ways, including weight, that means the tanwall is just a coloring agent and should not roll any faster or slower than a blackwall.

HOWEVER, according to Rolling Resistance it said "We're a bit puzzled by the transparent version of the Grand Prix 5000 S TR as our rolling resistance test indicates it rolls quite a bit slower than the black-black version." But maybe that is only true for that particular tire, because techically they are the same tire, unless Conti made some sort of change to the tanwall version, or maybe a different factory is making the tanwall and another is making the blackwall, and because of that the factories are making them different and that is effecting what they see on the resistance tests.

Rubber is most commonly black because it has some sort of carbon-black addition to it that increases some tensile properties. I don't know what they put in the light colored rubber they put on the gum walls, but it's likely suboptimal, hence why most gumwall tyres are slower than their black counterparts.

As for cotton tires and their ski walls, as you said, totally different story.

Why would we expect coloring agents (in non-cotton case) to have no impact on RR? All additives affect material properties. The question is just how and by how much.

Also, GP5k is not the exception. I listed multiple examples which you can see for yourself on BRR as well as a comment by an industry expert from Goodyear. Here's what I'm referring to:

Junior Varsity wrote: ↑

Thu May 09, 2024 3:01 pm

Non-black sidewall vulcanized tires are indeed slower than their black sidewall version. Varying from 12% to 20% on average. In addition, they also have lower air retention and cut/puncture qualities too. But hey, people seem to like the way they look so IDK.

Cotton casing is a different story as they're made with a completely different process. With colors, it's like comparing apples and oranges.

Schwalbe told our team that the sidewall color makes no difference to rolling resistance. The brownish color is actually the natural color of the casing and the black tires are colored - not the other way round.

MTB or road? Basen on BRR, the Pro One is the same with both casings. But for MTB the brown sidewall version (ironically the "Racing" casing) is the slower one.

Applies to all schwalbe with transparent casind, mtb and road.
Which modell did brr test that is available with the same compund but different casings?

froze wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 11, 2024 3:32 am

BigBoyND wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 05, 2024 6:31 am

mrlobber wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 04, 2024 9:24 am

BRR have tested both the 25mm and the 28mm Power Cup TLRs. What makes you think the 30mm would be suddenly that much faster? Even though I see (from the pics) that both the Power Cups tested indeed were tanwall , the Power Cup clincher they tested was black, and had comparable RR to the TLR versions (if accounting for the butyl effect)

Not sure we can draw any conclusions from a tubed Power Cup which could use a completely different construction.

Black may or may not be faster, but there are several reasons there's a decent chance:
-S TR in tan walls is 15-20% slower than black
- JV mentioned in a Goodyear thread that you can expect 15% slower rolling with most tan wall constructions
- Schwalbe MTB tires are also slower in tan wall by roughly that amount.

There are different types of "tan" sidewalls, there are skinwall, gumwall, and tanwall; tanwall is the modern version of gumwall, while gumwall was a thicker sidewall they are no longer made like that.

Everything I've ever knew about differences was that skinwall tires are generally lighter, more supple, and faster rolling than standard blackwall or tanwall tires because they have less rubber covering the casing and you can see the threads.

Tanwall is just a disguised appearance to look like a skinwall, which means since both a tanwall and a blackwall are exactly the same in all ways, including weight, that means the tanwall is just a coloring agent and should not roll any faster or slower than a blackwall.

HOWEVER, according to Rolling Resistance it said "We're a bit puzzled by the transparent version of the Grand Prix 5000 S TR as our rolling resistance test indicates it rolls quite a bit slower than the black-black version." But maybe that is only true for that particular tire, because techically they are the same tire, unless Conti made some sort of change to the tanwall version, or maybe a different factory is making the tanwall and another is making the blackwall, and because of that the factories are making them different and that is effecting what they see on the resistance tests.

So, to clear things up; Gumwall and Skinwall are NOT colors, they are a type of construction, and both can come in various colors. This is applicable to vulcanized nylon tires, not open tubulars. Frankly, it annoys me when I see tire companies use these terms incorrectly as they’re just adding to the confusion.

A gumwall tire is when the tread 'gum' (think rubber) covers the entire exterior of the tire's casing. The best example I can think of here would be the standard tire you'd find on a 1980 Schwinn Varsity. You also still see this in some modern urban tires where the extra rubber on the sidewall adds additional protection. Same with some BMX tires.

All modern road, gravel, and mountain tires are skinwall. This is where the tread cap sits at the center of the casing and does not extend down the sidewall. The sidewalls are thinner “like skin” making the tire itself lighter and more supple.

Skinwall tires can have black, tan, transparent, or really whatever color you’d like. Tires are black in color due to the inclusion of carbon black, a substance which is mixed in with the rubber to improve strength and durability. The whole point of a non-black sidewall (or casing) is for fashion purposes only. In the case of tan or transparent, to look like tubulars from back in the “good ol’ days”. The lack of carbon black in a tire’s casing rubber has negative effects varying from decreased strength, worse air retention (TLR), to increases in rolling resistance. Some of those can be addressed by various methods, but that simply results in increased weight and further degradation of rolling resistance. But as the kids say, “they look cool”.

I would also be wary of some of the conclusions drawing by BRR. While a wonderful resource, some of the assumptions just aren't correct but that's understandable. BRR does a great job creating information with the same protocol so comparisons can be made with a consistent denominator. There are so many aspects of a tire's performance that go well beyond what can be seen or measured. A quick example would be correlating a tire's thickness to tread life or durability. That would be making the assumption that all the casing layups and materials are the same and the variable is the tread cap's thickness. Personally, I look at the actual Raw Puncture Data as a comparison rather than the Total Puncture Score.

Junior Varsity wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 11, 2024 8:29 pm

froze wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 11, 2024 3:32 am

BigBoyND wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 05, 2024 6:31 am

mrlobber wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 04, 2024 9:24 am

BRR have tested both the 25mm and the 28mm Power Cup TLRs. What makes you think the 30mm would be suddenly that much faster? Even though I see (from the pics) that both the Power Cups tested indeed were tanwall , the Power Cup clincher they tested was black, and had comparable RR to the TLR versions (if accounting for the butyl effect)

Not sure we can draw any conclusions from a tubed Power Cup which could use a completely different construction.

Black may or may not be faster, but there are several reasons there's a decent chance:
-S TR in tan walls is 15-20% slower than black
- JV mentioned in a Goodyear thread that you can expect 15% slower rolling with most tan wall constructions
- Schwalbe MTB tires are also slower in tan wall by roughly that amount.

There are different types of "tan" sidewalls, there are skinwall, gumwall, and tanwall; tanwall is the modern version of gumwall, while gumwall was a thicker sidewall they are no longer made like that.

Everything I've ever knew about differences was that skinwall tires are generally lighter, more supple, and faster rolling than standard blackwall or tanwall tires because they have less rubber covering the casing and you can see the threads.

Tanwall is just a disguised appearance to look like a skinwall, which means since both a tanwall and a blackwall are exactly the same in all ways, including weight, that means the tanwall is just a coloring agent and should not roll any faster or slower than a blackwall.

HOWEVER, according to Rolling Resistance it said "We're a bit puzzled by the transparent version of the Grand Prix 5000 S TR as our rolling resistance test indicates it rolls quite a bit slower than the black-black version." But maybe that is only true for that particular tire, because techically they are the same tire, unless Conti made some sort of change to the tanwall version, or maybe a different factory is making the tanwall and another is making the blackwall, and because of that the factories are making them different and that is effecting what they see on the resistance tests.

So, to clear things up; Gumwall and Skinwall are NOT colors, they are a type of construction, and both can come in various colors. This is applicable to vulcanized nylon tires, not open tubulars. Frankly, it annoys me when I see tire companies use these terms incorrectly as they’re just adding to the confusion.



Skinwall tires can have black, tan, transparent, or really whatever color you’d like. Tires are black in color due to the inclusion of carbon black, a substance which is mixed in with the rubber to improve strength and durability. The whole point of a non-black sidewall (or casing) is for fashion purposes only. In the case of tan or transparent, to look like tubulars from back in the “good ol’ days”. The lack of carbon black in a tire’s casing rubber has negative effects varying from decreased strength, worse air retention (TLR), to increases in rolling resistance. Some of those can be addressed by various methods, but that simply results in increased weight and further degradation of rolling resistance. But as the kids say, “they look cool”.

I'm not a tire expert, maybe you are and can correct this website information. But after a much time-consuming search I consistently ran into this sort of information: https://www.theproscloset.com/blogs/new ... wall-tires

This site goes deep, maybe too deep, but worth reading: https://shunauto.com/article/what-is-th ... ycle-tires

And if you query the internet you find out that most professional racers are now using skinwall tires because they say they are a tad faster.

Look at the photos of the bikes used in the TDF it appears most, or at least half were using skinwall tires, but that could be simply be due to free tires from sponsors: https://www.bikeradar.com/features/pro- ... ance-bikes

Those are all cotton casing tyres

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froze wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 12, 2024 11:06 pm

I'm not a tire expert, maybe you are and can correct this website information. But after a much time-consuming search I consistently ran into this sort of information: https://www.theproscloset.com/blogs/new ... wall-tires

This site goes deep, maybe too deep, but worth reading: https://shunauto.com/article/what-is-th ... ycle-tires

And if you query the internet you find out that most professional racers are now using skinwall tires because they say they are a tad faster.

Look at the photos of the bikes used in the TDF it appears most, or at least half were using skinwall tires, but that could be simply be due to free tires from sponsors: https://www.bikeradar.com/features/pro- ... ance-bikes

The Pros Closet and Shunauto sites are both just completely incorrect. They seem to mix and match terms freely with no consistency and I'm not sure what else I can say here.

Re: the Bike Radar article, yes there are tires with tan sidewalls but they also have cotton casings. The newest generation of Vittoria Corsa Pro are still using a cotton casing with a unique process which is still different than the vulcanization process you see with nylon tires. The only other tire you see in the peloton with a tan sidewall is the Specialized Turbo Cotton which comes out of the same factory.